On this episode, I’m joined by three outstanding leaders from Rock Dental Brands. Kristi Casey, the company’s dynamic CEO, brings nearly two decades of experience from a Fortune 15 company and now leads Rock with a focus on scalable growth and doctor support. Dr. Mark Dake, an accomplished orthodontist with over 40 years of clinical experience, is one of the original founders of Rock Dental Brands and continues to advocate for clinical excellence and doctor-led decision-making. Spencer Lunghino, Chief Development Officer, offers deep expertise in partnership strategy and private equity, helping Rock redefine what it means to truly support clinicians at every stage of their career.
In this episode, Dustin Burleson sits down with the powerhouse leadership team behind Rock Dental Brands to answer one of the most pressing questions in modern dentistry and orthodontics: How do I avoid choosing the wrong DSO?
You’ll hear directly from CEO Kristi Casey, Chief Development Officer Spencer Lunghino, and Co-Founder Dr. Mark Dake as they share a transparent look into the origins, philosophy, and strategic direction of Rock Dental Brands. Together, they bust myths around private equity, clinical autonomy, and growth timelines—and reveal what doctors should really be asking before joining a DSO.
If you're a dentist, orthodontist, or specialist considering your next move, this episode is a must-listen.
What You’ll Learn:
Key Quotes:
“We were built to be proud of the work we’re doing 50 years from now." —Dr. Mark Dake
“You're not giving up control of your practice. You're gaining part of 110 practices.” —Kristi Casey
Connect with Our Guests:
Resources Mentioned:
Subscribe & Review:
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and subscribe to The Burleson Box on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your support helps us bring powerful conversations like this to more listeners in healthcare leadership.
***
The Burleson Box is brought to you by Stax Payments:
Save Big on Transaction Fees: Boost Your Bottom Line with Stax Payments.
Did you know that your practice can start saving thousands of dollars on your monthly processing costs with our preferred payments partner, Stax? Simplify your practice operations and provide a quality patient experience. Healthcare practices like yours need a way to accept payments simply and securely. That's where Stax comes in.
Stax helps you manage your entire payments experience from within one platform. You can safely accept touch-free payments in-person, online, or over the phone, securely store and manage patient information with layered security and Level 1 PCI compliance. Take advantage of a simpler, more transparent way to process your payments with competitive flat-rate pricing, provided exclusively through Stax. No additional fees or contracts required!
Power your practice and get paid faster with simple, safe and secure payment solutions. Have questions? Schedule time to speak with a dedicated payment consultant to learn more.
Click Below to Lear More Today:
StaxPayments.com/burleson-seminars
***
Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, exclusive study guides, special edition books each quarter, powerpoint and keynote presentations and two tickets to Dustin Burleson's Annual Leadership Retreat.
http://www.theburlesonbox.com/sign-up
Stay Up to Date: Sign up for The Burleson Report, our weekly newsletter that is delivered each Sunday with timeless insight for life and private practice. Sign up here:
http://www.theburlesonreport.com
Follow Dustin Burleson, DDS, MBA at:
http://www.burlesonseminars.com
00:01.64
Dustin Burleson
All right. Welcome, everyone. I'm so excited to have with us the leadership team at Rock Dental Brands. Welcome, guys. We'll start maybe from my screen. It'd be right to left. We'll start with Kristi Casey. We'll start with Dr. Mark Dake and then Spencer Lunghino. want to make sure everyone has a chance to say hi.
00:16.94
Mark Dake
you
00:17.09
Dustin Burleson
um Some of our members met you in Florida a few years ago. Some met you at Rock Tales last year, the AAO. But we'll start with Kristi. Maybe tell us who you are for people that might not have ah ah met you yet and a little bit about your ah history with Rock Dental Brands.
00:32.88
Kristi Casey
Great. Thank you. it's So excited to be here with you, Dr. Burleson. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while now, and it's fun to have the whole team here. So I'm Kristi Casey. I'm the CEO of Rock Tunnel Brands.
00:44.56
Kristi Casey
I've been here for about six years. So started out as the COO and later moved into the CEO spot in about 2021, think that was.
00:56.09
Kristi Casey
Prior to this, I spent about 18 years at a Fortune 15 company, kind of starting at the very bottom and growing quite rapidly to to ah elevated positions, running operations, product marketing, um et cetera, large scale teams. So it's been fun to bring that experience here to rock as we're growing rapidly and the ability to scale this and and make sure that we're staying ahead of supporting our doctors and giving them what they need has been really good to bring that experience here, but also really fun to learn a new industry and help shape this one along the way.
01:31.93
Dustin Burleson
We appreciate your leadership and your time.
01:32.03
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
01:34.09
Dustin Burleson
I know you're busy and it's nice to have more than just tooth people on the, on the program. So although we do have at least one other dentite, Dr. Dake is here. We'll talk, we'll talk teeth if you let us.
01:45.59
Dustin Burleson
ah Dr. Dake, say hello to anyone who might not have met you yet or a horde of you, but tell us little bit about your history and especially at Rock Dental Brands.
01:55.16
Mark Dake
Mark Yeah, i am I am the tooth type guy here. So the representative, but my name is Mark Dake. I'm an orthodontist. I've practiced for 41 years. It's hard to believe, but it went by pretty quickly.
02:08.64
Mark Dake
Myself and five other orthodontists were the original founders of Rock Dental Brands. And I think we started that maybe 12 or 13 years ago.
02:14.32
Spencer Lunghino
you
02:18.09
Mark Dake
I kind of forget the ah time goes by quickly, but we've always enjoyed working with Dr. Burleson attending some of his events and you know his orthodontists are there typically and other specialists are typically kind of high high quality people, so we've ah we've enjoyed being involved.
02:40.54
Dustin Burleson
It's neat group to hang out with. And um I think our members are always excited to see and hear from you because I just saw in my feed on LinkedIn today, the time of this recording of the top 10 DSOs growing and moving and shaking and leading the industry.
02:55.15
Dustin Burleson
i was not surprised to see Rock Dental Brands in that list of 10. I'll send you that link in case you didn't see it today.
02:59.73
Mark Dake
Right, yeah, appreciate it.
03:00.24
Dustin Burleson
and So you got this talented guy to your, what on my screen would be to your right, Dr. Dake, which is Spencer Lunghino. Spencer, tell us who you are and and how you're dealing with a lot of this rapid growth at Rock Dental Brands.
03:12.60
Spencer Lunghino
Of course. Spencer Lunghino here, Chief Development Officer here at Rock Dental Brands. A little background on me. I've spent my entire career in partnership development.
03:23.97
Spencer Lunghino
um And a big point of pride for me is doing that as a part of companies that are kind of breaking the mold and redefining what partnership means and how they work with their partners.
03:36.76
Spencer Lunghino
So, That's something we certainly do here at Rock. And I think in comparing kind of how we approach partnership here at Rock versus maybe the perception of how DSOs purchase or partner with practices, it's it's just different here.
03:50.77
Spencer Lunghino
And that's been super intentional on our end. I've been with Rock for in last year here. So joined recently, and we have a bunch of growth ahead of us, which we're really excited about.
04:01.79
Dustin Burleson
Cool. I want to start with you, Spencer, and let's talk about private equity. You know, I think, Mark, you and I, I mean, you've been doing this longer than I have. It'll be 20 years next year. This idea of, you know, private equity coming into dentistry and in into medicine, you know,
04:16.75
Spencer Lunghino
you
04:17.72
Dustin Burleson
20, 30 years ago was kind of unheard of in dentistry at least. And now it's really exciting and popular and everybody wants to know, you know, why, why would a group partner with private equity? Can we just start there? Like what, what is private equity? Literally, where's the money come from? Is there some,
04:32.82
Dustin Burleson
you know, secret pile of cash somewhere that people are investing in dentistry, who are these people, you know, what are their goals and making investments in dentistry and and just kind of give us a, you can't go too basic, let's go 101.
04:46.36
Dustin Burleson
What's private equity? and And you know, why do you see that as ah as a valuable thing and and in our profession?
04:52.83
Spencer Lunghino
Sure. I'll share a little bit on the one-on-one and then I think um you know Dr. Dake and Kristi will jump in on maybe some of the more dental applicable topics there. But I'd say starting at a very basic level, private equity really is what it sounds like.
05:08.32
Spencer Lunghino
It's making investments in private companies. So ah you know a private company is a company that is not yet you know listed on a stock exchange. So you can't go out and buy shares in that company any day. You can't sell shares in that company any day. And that's really what private equity is. It's investing in private companies.
05:26.12
Spencer Lunghino
um And, you know, the groups out there that are the private equity firms that do that, what they are, are, you know, groups of investors that have, um,
05:37.08
Spencer Lunghino
you know, created funds. In some cases, it can be hundreds of millions of dollars. In other cases, it can be billions of dollars. But what they do with those funds is they invest in companies that they believe they can help and they can grow.
05:50.71
Spencer Lunghino
um And you may ask, where do they get their money from? That's a lot of money. Where is where does that come from? Which is a great question. And I think that's a really interesting piece of all of this because you think of private, I think some people can think of private equity and You think, oh, these are just some big money people, but it's really kind of everyone's money in a lot of different ways that feeds into the private equity ecosystem there. So um in terms of contributors to private equity, you have endowments for universities and that sort of thing.
06:19.84
Spencer Lunghino
You have insurance companies. So when you pay your homeowner's insurance and it goes somewhere and they grow it so that they can pay out when something happens there, that's an example of that. ah You have pension funds. So that can be for teachers, it can be for
06:32.38
Mark Dake
Thank you.
06:32.56
Spencer Lunghino
Policemen, firefighters, city workers, all those sorts of things. So those are the folks that ultimately are giving that money to private equity funds to invest and grow it. um So when they generate those returns, those are generally speaking, the groups and entities of that those funds and that money goes back to.
06:50.32
Spencer Lunghino
um And I think another interesting piece related to that is, um you know, why did these... ah you know why did these asset managers decide to put their money in in private equity? I think historically, um you know many years ago, it was, okay, you probably invest in some public stocks, you invest in some bonds, maybe you invest in some other things. So why would you why would you put your money in private equity?
07:15.81
Spencer Lunghino
And generally speaking, the answer to that is um private equity has proved to have um higher returns than public market would on the equity side and certainly more ah than bonds or investments in in debt or that sort of thing would have too. So um anyway, a bunch of reasons and good reasons that private equity exists and generally speaking, the folks that they entrust with that capital to go invest are people that um are really skilled at supporting companies and helping them grow.
07:45.76
Spencer Lunghino
So, you know, our private equity investor in particular here at Rock Dental is a group called Vistria Group. um And they have teams and resources and various folks that help us in a lot of different ways on day to day basis, whether it be, um you know, ah on the ah HR side of things, on the real estate side of things and a bunch of other areas that just help us be a better company and grow.
08:08.61
Spencer Lunghino
So that's my one on-oneishsh on one ish on private equity.
08:12.22
Dustin Burleson
That good. Yeah, I listened to a great podcast recently on Rolex, the the watch brand, and how they're not obviously not publicly traded, but wouldn't wouldn't we love to all own a piece of that, right? And that's where private equity and and you know venture capital gets to come in and and invest in businesses that have a really tremendous growth potential that aren't available in the public market.
08:31.72
Dustin Burleson
ah Dr. Dake and k Chrissy, can you speak to the fact that not all private equities created equal. Spencer kind of led into it with just some of them. He's like, here's some money, go make it multiply for us. And others say, hey, here's a board of advisors are going to help you with HR and legal and and acquisitions and biz dev and and marketing and management.
08:49.79
Dustin Burleson
Can you talk about why not all private equity is created equal?
08:53.69
Kristi Casey
Dr.
08:53.62
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
08:54.00
Kristi Casey
Dick, why don't you give some background on how we made the choice that we made and some of the criteria that you looked at?
09:02.16
Mark Dake
Okay. Well, I can only speak for for us and Rockdale Brands, but ah kind of the history, i think you have to kind of think back, you know, why did we decide to take on a private equity partner? and And when we first put our first group of doctors together, we did that um based on you know, bank debt. Some of the doctors had some bank debt. We rolled it all together and financed it that way.
09:28.15
Mark Dake
As we continue to grow grow, and And if you wanna grow, as everybody knows, you have to invest back in the business. And so, and many times you need more capital to to grow faster, bigger, better.
09:42.72
Mark Dake
And you at the same time, we needed to hire, you know, some people like Kristi and Spencer to kind of be our back office folks to manage help us manage these practices. So we then went to the to the kind of the family office route. So we had a family office here in Arkansas.
10:03.01
Mark Dake
that helped us with some capital for three or four years.
10:08.11
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
10:08.25
Mark Dake
And then we we got to the spot that we again kind of outgrew them and as we continued to grow. up So that's when we went out and looked for private equity partners. You know we typically, I think this is pretty common, but we hired a ah banking advisor, investment advisor.
10:25.55
Mark Dake
um We had 10 or 15 people you know bid on our business. And we we chose the the private equity company that we felt that would allow us to continue to have control of our practices.
10:38.90
Mark Dake
They don't have any input on patient care or how we run this this business.
10:39.04
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
10:45.41
Mark Dake
But like Spencer added, they just help us kind of around the edges, help us be better. And so we're very happy with the group we chose. But I think that's why most people go the private equity group is basically so you have enough equity to continue to grow and grow in the right way.
11:03.97
Dustin Burleson
ah It's a great point, Kristi. I want to hear your take because I know you're not only a mover and shaker in our industry, but as you mentioned, grew in a very large company to to a high position. And i think one of the myths I'd like to get your take on and maybe dispel is you know whether or not private equity in dentistry is a good thing or a bad thing.
11:25.06
Dustin Burleson
What's the impact it's had and where do you see it kind of moving forward? Can we start there?
11:30.36
Kristi Casey
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a great question. and you know, from my viewpoint, and my vantage point, you know, private equity in this and this industry has been very positive.
11:33.97
Mark Dake
you
11:40.39
Kristi Casey
Now, obviously, we can all look around and read stories about things that have happened. But look at the amount of innovation that has just started because of it, right? I mean, this this whole industry was built around having a ah single product in ah in a single shingle office,
12:00.27
Kristi Casey
And now we're bringing together technology. Look at AI is coming in. And we were all very nervous about what is, what did that mean? And will we like it? We were just on the, in the beginning stages of what this whole industry could look like for doctors, how they can treat patients more. And we need capital to be able to make that happen.
12:19.96
Kristi Casey
You know, and i I think about how they, I don't think any of our doctors would tell you that that they even know that there's a private equity group. They're very friendly and they're very helpful with helping us think through where we want to be in five years.
12:34.90
Kristi Casey
But for the most part, they're like Dr. Dake said on the edges, but they're helping us take this strategy and move it forward. So for us, I think we look at it and say it's a great opportunity for us to partner with more people to bring technology to our doctors, to be able to have a strategy that says, I never want you to have a piano machine that goes out.
12:58.02
Kristi Casey
Like I want to know that it's already at its end of life and have one ordered and ready for you so that you don't have to miss a day of seeing patients and have that type of stress. And when you have a great partner, those are the kinds things you're thinking ahead.
13:12.04
Kristi Casey
You know, you're, you're thinking about how can I prepare for the next, five years, not how can I prepare for the next five days. And so I think having that partner allows you to do that and allows you to become much more innovative in the space.
13:26.58
Dustin Burleson
I couldn't agree more. um I'm going to dig into that a little bit more. But I think, yeah you know, at a 30,000 foot view, observing how much the landscape has changed, the consumer landscape, the insurance landscape, the regulatory and compliance landscape, just the cost of doing business.
13:44.63
Dustin Burleson
I was joking with my dad. My dad graduated dental school in 76 from WVU. He's been retired for ah long time now. He said, Dustin, when I was in practice, I had ah water bill. ah had an electric bill.
13:54.82
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
13:56.22
Mark Dake
you
13:56.55
Kristi Casey
Thank you.
13:56.90
Dustin Burleson
had a telephone bill and a dental lab bill. And I think that was about it. And so now I look at all of the things that are in place in the modern orthodontic practice, the modern oral surgery practice, general dental practice, pediatric practice.
14:11.75
Dustin Burleson
It's so complex. And I think, how do you how do we navigate forward for all stakeholders if we're competing in a world where In my world, you're up against, you know, rock dental brands, you're up against Invisalign putting equity in, Invisalign's putting equity in Heartland Dental.
14:26.21
Dustin Burleson
How do we, you know, move forward as a profession where the doctor gets to be a doctor and not deal with the 10,000 things circling their head every day? Like, oh, the Pano machine's out.
14:37.11
Dustin Burleson
Well, if you're the only doctor in the practice, and you're not running ah an efficient operation had poor cashflow, you're in trouble.
14:44.56
Kristi Casey
Right.
14:45.07
Dustin Burleson
And with Rockdittle, it's already, it's already, it's inventoried. It's already in the workflow. It's going to show up at the right time. So um there's a question somewhere in that, which is, you know, there are positives and negatives of DSOs.
14:55.54
Mark Dake
Thank you.
14:58.16
Dustin Burleson
I've given you some of the obvious positives. Are there any negatives you think are out there? Are all DSOs the same? Maybe talk about that for a little bit.
15:06.08
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
15:06.72
Kristi Casey
Yeah, I'll kick it off. And then I want to hand it off to i You know, I think there are a number of great DSOs out there, right? And once again, we've all heard stories. I like to think that that we are very unique.
15:20.53
Kristi Casey
And one of the things I'd love for any of your listeners to come visit us, come to Little Rock, let us show you what makes us different.
15:24.74
Dustin Burleson
Yeah.
15:28.00
Kristi Casey
Obviously, our clinics have phenomenal providers. I mean, ah I think I've been on record for saying our net promoter score is the highest I've ever seen. It's, you know, 93%. people come and tell us, I loved getting my wisdom teeth taken out with your doctor. So we got that. We got phenomenal doctors.
15:45.88
Kristi Casey
But then we have 100 people that sit in our support center there to support our providers and their staff. And I think that really makes us different. Do you have marketing strategies available for these doctors? Do we have HR support available for the doctors? Do we have compliance, revenue cycle, IT, business intelligence, all sitting here ready to serve our doctors.
16:08.24
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
16:12.36
Kristi Casey
And I think that's the heart of what makes us different outside of our phenomenal doctors. So I don't know, Dr. Dake, maybe you've got something to add there.
16:21.80
Mark Dake
Well, I mean, since i have you know I'm a practicing doctor and and kind of been through this, I think that one of the big things it does is kind of give us peace of mind. Most of us as professionals, you know we want to do what's best for our patients. we want to take good care of them.
16:37.81
Mark Dake
But with all the things that Dr. Burleson just mentioned, all these things around the outside that are competing for our time and our our energy,
16:47.54
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
16:47.89
Mark Dake
allowing us to or you know Allowing us to work with Rock Dental Brands allows us to kind of do what we do best, which is take care of patients. And I think that's really the the kind of the bottom, bottom line.
16:59.44
Mark Dake
It's, well, I want to take good care of patients. How can we best do that?
17:04.12
Kristi Casey
and we And we want the doctors to be involved. I mean, we've got boards to make sure that we make the right decisions based on being provider led as well. So a doctor can be as involved as they would like to be.
17:17.81
Kristi Casey
Or in some instances, you know, they they want to just take care of their patients really well and they want to make sure that they have time to spend with their families. That's also important. But if you want to be really involved and you want to help shape and guide this, we want you to have that opportunity.
17:34.19
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, i was it was amazing to me when my wife and I came down and toured the support center and saw it just blew our mind.
17:38.91
Mark Dake
Thank you.
17:40.96
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
17:42.35
Dustin Burleson
You know, it's like it's it's on a whole different level. It's like we were over here playing wiffle ball. and We got to come see the Yankees, you know, taking batting practices. It's a totally different experience in terms of if you think about when patients want to schedule.
17:55.72
Dustin Burleson
Right. And when. Most orthodontists are open and available taking phone calls. ah The ability for patients to schedule online. How much revenue we were collecting versus what the support center at Rock can do. It was just super impressive. So I would highly recommend anyone listening, take Kristi up on the offer.
18:13.44
Dustin Burleson
If you're in Little Rock or come to Little Rock, it's a really cool town and come see the support center and start to wrap your mind around what high performance teams are doing versus what the average dental practice is. I'm not dissing small dental practices. We ran one for a long time.
18:29.21
Dustin Burleson
We tried to grow it. We joined with Rock. That helped us you know do things at a different level. So there's just, I think, interesting ways to expand your mind on, wow, what if we collected 98% of our revenue?
18:40.48
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
18:43.11
Dustin Burleson
What if we had a 93 net promoter score? What if I think of the time we were talking to Gray Finch, a wonderful practice management software. They were showing us like almost a third of the patients were scheduling.
18:56.72
Dustin Burleson
They were scheduling after hours. you know when we were When we were at home or on the ball field with our kids, there's people available to take new patient intake.
18:58.45
Kristi Casey
Right.
19:05.50
Dustin Burleson
It's really, really amazing. um Spencer, I want to bring you in. If someone says, okay, I came to Little Rock. I saw this is pretty cool.
19:13.16
Mark Dake
you
19:13.43
Dustin Burleson
you know How do I know if it's the right time for me? i have lots of questions on how do I know if I should join it so id you partner up with a DSO? Am I too big? Am I too small? Is it a good time? Is it a bad time?
19:24.14
Dustin Burleson
I think everyone was kind of just doing nothing, kind of sitting on the sidelines 2023, 2024, waiting you know to see what would happen with the election and cost of capital. Where where do you see someone listening?
19:34.99
Dustin Burleson
um Where would you recommend they start to navigate in their mind if a DSO is a good fit for them or not?
19:43.86
Spencer Lunghino
100%. and that's a great topic. I was wondering if I could interject with one other, just a little bit back on the DSO side, which is, you know, I think, as Chrissy mentioned, you know, our opinion is that there are several really high quality DSOs out there, you know, we have opinions that we're doing things better and and really well on that front and stack up really well.
19:50.90
Dustin Burleson
Thank
20:05.12
Spencer Lunghino
But I think Another question just to think through or to think about when when thinking about that a little bit on your own end is where did that company come from and what what are its goals and what are its reasons for existing, if you will?
20:20.66
Spencer Lunghino
And I think one thing that's really unique and kind of core to who how we started who we are is is why we started in ways. And I'd say we were a support company before we were acquiring.
20:33.37
Dustin Burleson
Thank
20:33.29
Spencer Lunghino
And I'd actually probably say that Converse is, or the flip side of that is actually true for a lot of the other groups out there. um So Dr. Dake, I don't know if you ah would be up for sharing a little bit, just in terms of how we evolved, you know, from individual practice locations to folks grouping together to say, Hey, we want to find ways to support each other and centralize things. And into eventually we became a company that,
20:57.58
Spencer Lunghino
that partner can acquire, but really our roots is being excellent at service. And I think, um, you know, maybe just sharing on that a little bit could be good.
21:06.03
Mark Dake
Well, you know, they say that, you know, businesses are started because there's some sort of need. But what happened was, is that our group of first first six orthodontists got together.
21:18.92
Mark Dake
we you know, it's expensive to put together a ah business team to help manage these practices. And so we were thinking, how can we make this work? well we'll start um you know helping manage other people's practices and so that's what we did first and thankfully because we had a good team and they did a good job most of those people that we were managing their practices they now are part of our group and so so that's how we initially started growing and started you know partnering with new people so i think the i think the key thing is is that
21:52.33
Spencer Lunghino
you
21:55.79
Mark Dake
You know, Rock Dillbrands started at the beginning so that we could provide great service for our patients in the most efficient way possible. And it just we were just lucky because we did have that and management team in place early, early on that allowed us to kind of grow the right way, we think.
22:16.96
Dustin Burleson
Kristi, can you speak to timing? I know, i think a lot of one of the myths I see is doctors say, well, I'm, you know, I'm not ready yet. That's something going to do at the end of my career, maybe a few years before.
22:28.41
Dustin Burleson
I think what struck me is really impressive was the youth, the overall experience. Nothing against the doctors that are about to retire, but I think the average age of a doc and rock dental brands is pretty young. And the number of new associates coming in with a partnership to pathway.
22:38.73
Kristi Casey
yeah
22:38.84
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
22:42.28
Dustin Burleson
Can you talk about someone who says, i think, think I'm going to wait till I'm ready to retire to join. Can you join earlier?
22:49.16
Kristi Casey
Absolutely. And when we have doctors partnering at all life stages, right? Because in some instances, you are ready to retire. And this has been your baby, your legacy. and you want a group that you can trust to take it forward and continue to grow it and have the quality that you built with that. And I think we're a great partner for that. We're not a financial roll up.
23:11.52
Kristi Casey
We're an actual company with a legacy that we want to see continue to build as well. So I think that's a great path. But there are a number of doctors that come our way that say, we want to keep growing. We want to double down.
23:23.37
Kristi Casey
We want to grow. How can we do that? And we've got numerous examples where we've built them new clinics for them to go expand their footprint, where we've helped them grow their associate model.
23:35.41
Kristi Casey
And so we're a great partner when it comes to that. We love to do that. We think that's fun. And we love to find those growth-oriented partners that that want to continue to do that. And we'll come up with a strategy on on what that can look like. And so for those partners, and and that was ah that was those were some really large acquisitions over the last couple of years that were young doctors that are saying, I want to grow.
23:58.84
Kristi Casey
Help me.
23:58.98
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
23:59.73
Kristi Casey
We've built multiple clinics over the last couple of years that have been really fun to do and watch them take that to the next level. And so I think it depends on where you are and what you need. I think you really need to understand if you're going to partner, who you're partnering with, what they can support you with.
24:17.25
Kristi Casey
how they plan on helping you grow, if that's important for you, or how they help they're going to help you get to that different life stage where you're retiring. Are they actually going to create a plan for you that you feel comfortable with? And so I think we've been able to do that across many different um scenarios.
24:36.00
Kristi Casey
And um you know I think depending on what you want, we'd love to come up with a plan. I don't have one single plan that I can hand to a doctor and say, this is what it's like to partner with ROC.
24:46.60
Kristi Casey
I think I have to hear from you. We we all want to hear. i think Spencer gets really close with them on, like, tell me what you're looking for, because not everyone is a good fit.
24:57.62
Kristi Casey
I mean, that's just the bottom line. I mean, they not everyone's a great fit. We got really great doctors that want us to make sure that quality is what we're bringing in too.
25:09.32
Kristi Casey
And so we want to make sure we get the right fit. And I think if you're a doctor and you're thinking about partnering, go see their back office, really find out like what they can offer you in terms of where you are in your life stage, go deep.
25:16.05
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
25:25.48
Kristi Casey
We sit down and we do this, it's it's called cultural considerations. And it's a two hour conversation where we go deep on things like what makes your practice tick?
25:36.68
Kristi Casey
Because that's what we don't we don't want to lose that. What's the heart of that? What's really important to you? What do we think we're going to do together? what What is going to change?
25:45.68
Mark Dake
Thank you.
25:47.03
Kristi Casey
What's not going to change? like We want to be transparent on day one. I'm not saying we're perfect. We'll always mess up, but I promise you we'll fix it if we do mess up. And I think that's important is having a partner that you can plan with, you can collaborate with, that you can contact, that you can rely on.
26:04.11
Kristi Casey
And those are the things that that I think ROC does really well. um
26:10.27
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
26:10.47
Mark Dake
You know, I might interject something here. This is sort of a something that I've thought ah about ah recently. that In some ways, you know, Rock Delibrand is the private equity for the doctor that wants to sell and grow.
26:23.88
Kristi Casey
Absolutely.
26:24.58
Mark Dake
So we are to give them the ability to grow their their single location or to two or three locations, whatever it might be. We're there to help them grow and and partner with them and kind of go by, you know, walk side by side with them as we grow their practice.
26:41.25
Dustin Burleson
It's great point.
26:41.28
Spencer Lunghino
you
26:42.11
Dustin Burleson
And i can tell you just the market research that ROC has and their ability, not just to help you grow with DeNovo, you know, capital expansion, but up also the bottom line, right?
26:53.34
Dustin Burleson
So it's like a kind of joke with the residents.
26:54.36
Kristi Casey
Thanks.
26:55.56
Dustin Burleson
i'm like, it's kind of not fair what what we get to pay for a box of gloves and what we get to pay for Invisalign compared to the the solo practitioner. And medicine is even worse. I think Medicare right now doesn't pay new doctors that sign on. They don't get paid for six months. How can you open a how could you possibly open a private practice in medicine if you can't get your first payment for 180 days?
27:14.09
Dustin Burleson
So it's it's top and bottom line. That was really eye-opening to me um in a way that's really sustainable. on like we if we We know if it's working in 110 practices, it's probably going to work for you too.
27:26.38
Dustin Burleson
And so you know there's these things you don't know in a silo on your own that you get to learn from a larger group. So i speaking of bottom line, Dr. Dake, I want i want to address one myth. And that is, oh if I join a group,
27:39.89
Dustin Burleson
they're going to start telling me what to do in the clinic. They're going to tell me what brackets to use. They're going to tell me what wires. And this is like, it's so funny because everyone says that and I've never seen any group that actually does it. So can we talk about the clinical autonomy issue and and and that address that fear and that myth?
27:58.21
Mark Dake
Sure. Well, I mean, and I assume like you mentioned several DSOs are this way, but you know, when we would come in and partner with someone, we do not, we want them to continue to be successful. They're successful already and we don't want, you know, we don't want to partner.
28:13.64
Mark Dake
So we don't really want to upset the Alpacar.
28:13.73
Spencer Lunghino
you
28:15.64
Mark Dake
We just want to try to work around the edges or the things that we can help you improve on. And so, you know, basically getting down to the patient level, Obviously, the there's no we're not between the doctor and the patient at at all. So treatment planning, you want to use whatever bracket system you want to use. were We're agreeable with that. We might have a better price on another company that's the same as yours or or something similar.
28:43.90
Mark Dake
But, you know, we want you to continue to practice the way you've practiced before and do your quality work, and then we'll help you become around the edge as well on the business side of it. So, you know, we have we have no no interjection from the home office nor our private equity company on how we treat patients.
29:06.09
Dustin Burleson
Cool. I'm glad we glad we got that addressed. The elephant in the room.
29:10.44
Mark Dake
That's right.
29:10.89
Dustin Burleson
I'm grateful for your answer. at Spencer, I want to address another one, which is I'm too small.
29:15.41
Mark Dake
Thank you.
29:15.67
Dustin Burleson
I see this a lot where a doctor will say, I'm not really ready. What they're saying is like, i'm not I don't know that I'm big enough to be of interest to a partnership. you know What would you say to someone who says, they know they might not even want me?
29:27.72
Dustin Burleson
what What's your advice there?
29:30.26
Spencer Lunghino
Yeah, I think it's ah probably size is one of many considerations in terms of do you have a fit with a partner? And to me, that's not necessarily a one-way consideration. I think, sure, a DSO is going to have an opinion on um Okay, this is a fit, this isn't a fit, but probably as the practice owner, you also want to be thinking about that, whether you're small or you're large, or you know, you're something else, it's, hey, is this group really going to be able to support me where I'm at today?
30:01.24
Spencer Lunghino
And you may have a vision around where you want to be and are they going to be the right group to take you there? um So, you know, purely as it relates to size, I think one of the things that ah we take pride in here at ROC is being able to scale our support and operating model to fit a lot of different practice sizes.
30:23.31
Spencer Lunghino
So, you know, we have partners that are, you know, we've brought on partners that are individual locations and in some cases even, you know, ah closer to half a million of production or collections than to a million, but they have ambitions around growing and in the right instances and in the right markets, I can be a great fit and we feel really confident in our ability to to help support them in their goals.
30:47.18
Spencer Lunghino
whatever they may be. And then similarly, we you know have experiences with some very large multi-site partners and how you support those and work with those. And as Dr. Dakes said, you don't want to upset the apple cart. You don't want to change the things that are working really well.
31:02.21
Spencer Lunghino
um And not every situation situation is one size fit all either. so You know, we take pride in building to scale down. So even on the small end. So if you are, ah you know, an orthodontist, a pediatric dentist or an oral surgeon out there and you're on the smaller end, but ah you have ambitions for growth or you think rock might be helpful to you, ah that's a conversation we'd absolutely love to have.
31:23.37
Dustin Burleson
Cool. We'll put in the show notes how you can get direct in in front of Spencer, including ah coming up at the AAO in Philadelphia at the time of this recording to come hang out and learn more.
31:33.93
Dustin Burleson
um As much as we said stuff won't change, Dr. Dake, i want to pass it back over to you. On the clinical side, there will be some things that change, right? I want to address that. it's not Private equity doesn't just invest in in companies and say, you do whatever you want.
31:46.05
Dustin Burleson
If Apple stock price was consistently going down and they were selling fewer and fewer iPhones and the company was shrinking year over year, there probably wouldn't be a lot of people buying Apple stock. Right. So they do want to see they want to see the enterprise grow. Can you talk about what they might not be telling you about that growth?
32:02.62
Dustin Burleson
How how much they expect of you? What what might they be avoiding when they're ah kind of courting you to come join their group?
32:11.27
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
32:11.44
Mark Dake
Well, you know, I can't speak for for other DSOs, but I'll just kind of tell you what we do and how we look at it. You know, we'll we'll have a growth plan for every practice that we partner with, and we want to share that with with the doctor and make for sure that we're all on the same page. And so that's that's the key. We all have to be pulling in the same rope in the same same direction.
32:34.63
Mark Dake
So that would be part of our, part of our and Spencer and Chrissy's job is to kind of put that together and then we you know present that to our potential new partner.
32:45.43
Mark Dake
Some of the things that that do have to change is that we found early on Then when we had multiple different practice management systems, it was very difficult to manage these practices.
32:56.64
Mark Dake
Everything from ending the day and the accounting day to, you know, knowing how many patients you started that day. so So, you in our ah business, you know, you will have to switch your practice management software to either Grayfinch or Denticon, that's what we're using currently.
33:14.73
Mark Dake
So that that is kind of kind of a you know, we have to do that. And of course, you'll be on our HR system, which hopefully will be advantage. And there our ordering system, our ordering softwares, which should be an advantage also for most practices. So and that's, you know, that that'll be kind of part of the things that you have to change.
33:35.11
Mark Dake
I think that, you know, in the big, big picture that you know when you look at these different DSOs you just you just need to ask all the questions that you can think of about how how is this going to affect me and my patients and if you can get kind of past that and get the answers you want then then it's usually a good fit for you.
33:58.63
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
33:58.93
Dustin Burleson
one One big thing that will affect your long-term plan and that really ah drew our attention to Rock Dental Brands is the equity structure. can I know ah you went deep on this topic with our members and and our mastermind group in Kansas City and again in Orlando.
34:08.77
Mark Dake
Yeah
34:15.42
Dustin Burleson
Can you speak briefly about the fact that not all equity inside of DSO is the same and and maybe highlight that a little bit?
34:17.66
Mark Dake
yeah
34:21.96
Mark Dake
Sure. Well, Spencer can probably give more details on JV groups and, you know, different groups out there. But, you know, what what we felt from the very beginning, the the six original orthodontists, was that
34:33.21
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
34:33.33
Mark Dake
You know, if if somebody wants to partner with us, we want them to have equity at the same level that everybody else does. So there's no JV equity, there's no Series A, Series B, Series C. and our Our goal there was so that everybody, again, felt like it was their business and they could all work together to do that.
34:53.67
Mark Dake
And at the same time, we wanted it to be where it felt like that you know a doctor could, if they grew, they could continue to make more money. So our our compensation is based on production and you know how the practice grows. And so it's almost like a JV model, but but it's not in that we're able to to let doctors have the ability to continue to grow themselves.
35:17.78
Mark Dake
But even our associates that start with us that, you know, if they've worked for a year and have positive net promoter scores and have positive input from patients and staff, they they have the ability to go ahead and buy into our stock or our equity.
35:18.92
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
35:35.65
Mark Dake
So we want as many stockholders as we can as we can get it because we think it helps our business.
35:42.60
Dustin Burleson
Smart. Spencer and Kristi, I'd like for you to kind of kind of go a little deeper on that in
35:50.29
Kristi Casey
Yeah, i I'd love to add just a little something. um i think we all know I like to win and I still reflect back on a partnership deal that I was really excited about that at the last minute ah they chose a different partner.
36:04.82
Kristi Casey
And they chose that partner because that partner said you're not going to have to change your patient management system. And it still hurts, right? Because I'm thinking to myself, number one, I'm sitting here telling you that I am going to give you great support. And then you call me and I have to say, wait,
36:22.05
Kristi Casey
hold on, what practice management system are you on? And do I remember how to use that? and And so if you're taking a step back and you're thinking about this, like what support I want, that that's the reason why it's important to do that.
36:36.70
Kristi Casey
Later on, that that particular doctor found out that they were actually still going to have to change management system.
36:44.44
Dustin Burleson
Surprise!
36:44.97
Kristi Casey
like Surprise. So, you know, these questions really matter and in in in taking a step back and saying, what are they telling me? And does that make sense? and And go find some people to really talk to and get educated on that, because I'm certain that probably wasn't a ah ah happy surprise for her So that that's number one.
37:00.75
Spencer Lunghino
you
37:04.26
Kristi Casey
and the path, you know, to partnerships. is so important to us. So I do hear the myth a lot like I'm going to give up my ownership unless I'm in a JV model and oh JV models.
37:13.41
Mark Dake
Thank you.
37:15.46
Dustin Burleson
Thank you.
37:16.99
Kristi Casey
I'm not I like them. They're great, but there are two different things. Right. Do you own part of your practice or do you own part of your practices as well as 110 other practices.
37:30.12
Kristi Casey
So I think that's a really important notion. How involved are you? Are you involved in your clinic only or your clinic and all the other clinics and able to sit on different formulary boards and really shape the industry and how where we go? And I think that's an important notion. You're not giving up control in your clinic.
37:48.35
Kristi Casey
You're gaining you know, part of 110 clinics. And so I think it's an important thing to to talk about and think about and really understand the different models. Because words are used that I don't think are fair, like you're giving up control.
38:03.89
Kristi Casey
And that that's the last thing that a doctor wants to hear, right?
38:07.72
Dustin Burleson
Yes.
38:07.86
Kristi Casey
And so they say that first. And so make sure that, you know, you understand what that means. I'm not um not a doctor. I don't think i ever will be one. I don't like to say never, but I probably won't be.
38:21.61
Kristi Casey
i couldn't tell you how to treat a patient. All I can do is make sure that you have what you need. And Dr. Dake has set up this great... this whole network of doctors, and they're not going to let us come in and tell you how to do things. And if I wanted to, i couldn't, you know? And so what I can do is hear you out when you say, i want to try a different type of product.
38:43.88
Kristi Casey
I want to try 3D printing. I need to hire some more people. Can you take that off my plate? I need to amp up my digital marketing. Those are the things that that we can do, but taking control of your practice, but that's not what we can do. That's not what we're going to do.
38:59.73
Kristi Casey
And I, Dr.
38:59.82
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's a great point.
39:00.66
Kristi Casey
Dake wouldn't let that happen.
39:02.32
Mark Dake
Yeah.
39:03.20
Dustin Burleson
It's really important.
39:03.53
Mark Dake
no
39:04.04
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, because words matter. And you will hear people throw terms around that can be very misleading, like, oh you're going to lose control of your practice. And that's not the right way to think about giving you more control in the areas of matter and letting the experts help you in the areas where you shouldn't be.
39:20.28
Dustin Burleson
I can't tell you how many doctors waste too many hours thinking about their SEO, digital marketing, all that stuff that we used to do as individual practice owners when the people doing it at a high level are doing it in such a different and stratospheric level of success.
39:35.22
Dustin Burleson
It lets you go treat the patients they send to you as a part of a big group.
39:38.33
Kristi Casey
Right.
39:38.89
Dustin Burleson
um
39:38.94
Kristi Casey
right
39:39.63
Dustin Burleson
Yeah. Spencer, can we talk about kind of this kind of a two-way street of due diligence, right? Like if you're going to partner up, you're going to go through due diligence. But I have clients who have gotten to the... the one yard line with a deal and they've, it's fallen through because they didn't do their due diligence on the group that was supposed to be buying part of their practice.
40:00.73
Dustin Burleson
And it's always heartbreaking, but in retrospect, probably could have been, totally could have been prevented.
40:04.79
Spencer Lunghino
Thank you.
40:07.56
Dustin Burleson
Can you talk about, you know, what do you see when someone comes to you and says, I'm thinking of partnering up. What are the financial components that Rock is looking at a dentist, but also what should a dentist or an orthodontist be asking Rock and transparency?
40:23.58
Spencer Lunghino
Absolutely. A bunch of thoughts going through my head on that. So I think, um you know, the first I would mention is, you know, when someone approaches us and said, hey, you know, I'd like to consider a partnership. Can I learn more about that?
40:37.67
Spencer Lunghino
I'd like to you know, share financials, that sort of thing. We say, great, we're happy to do it. To go through our evaluation process and and look at what a partnership structure could be for that partner.
40:48.20
Spencer Lunghino
ah No obligation. We're happy to do it for anyone where we feel like there can be a good fit there. um I think from our end, sure, we want to look at financials. We want to do our financial analysis. We want to make sure that side of things would make sense for us, make sense for, you know, the practice owner and that sort of thing. But really, I'd say just, well, not just as, more importantly, is ah the partnership dynamics and the goals and the fit.
41:13.24
Spencer Lunghino
So great to get financials and and go through that process. But really, we want to spend time in person with owners to understand what their goals are, understand what's important about the practice to them.
41:23.55
Spencer Lunghino
just to make sure like, hey, do we feel like it's a good fit? and Are we going to be able to support in all the ways that are going to matter to them? And will they be happy with us long term? That's really what what we care about on that side of things. So we're super thorough both on the financial as well as the non-financial side of things prior you know, as a part of our valuation process and, you know, extending a partnership offer and that sort of thing. So our reputation is really important to us. We don't want to be leaving anyone on the 10, the two or the five yard line there.
41:52.14
Spencer Lunghino
um If we, you know, extend an offer or, you know, say, hey, let's go do this partnership. When we say that, we mean it. So I think that's one one side of what you mentioned there. um I think Flipping it around, if you're a practice owner and maybe, you know, you're talking to one group or you're talking to multiple groups, it's kind of like, gosh, how do I make a decision here? How do I discern what's good and what's bad?
42:14.82
Spencer Lunghino
um And it's not always easy. I think the main, the primary things that we would recommend for someone in that situation is meet as many people, ah both in leadership positions, as well as outside of leadership positions in the company.
42:30.96
Spencer Lunghino
Have reference calls with doctors, some that are similar to you, and also talk to a few that are different from you. And I think as you have those conversations and get to know the people, ah you'll very quickly, i think, start to come to the opinion, ah these are my people.
42:48.10
Spencer Lunghino
They're supported in the way that I want to be or, oh, that sounds like there's some things here that I don't want to be a part of or or maybe aren't a fit for me. So I think visit folks in person, come see their support center. We're in Little Rock, Arkansas, not the easiest to get to, but it's worth the trip.
43:03.19
Spencer Lunghino
ah But regardless, go make that visit. And I think you'll learn a lot just culturally and people wise and how you'll be supported. um And then the last piece I wanted to throw out there was a little bit more on the equity discussion, it relates a little bit to some of the comments we've made around joint venture partnerships, which is,
43:23.38
Spencer Lunghino
um
43:26.13
Spencer Lunghino
you know, going back to our conversation on private equity, not just anyone can invest in private equity. And I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind. You or I want to go buy shares in Apple, we can do that.
43:38.81
Spencer Lunghino
You know, anyone can go buy that stock. ah not anyone can go invest in a private equity fund. And in fact, very few people can. In ways, it's a very kind of exclusive world to become an investor in that.
43:51.70
Spencer Lunghino
And I think One of the things that's so attractive to, as as you partner with someone, um you know taking ownership in their overall company is it may represent the opportunity to be investing right alongside a private equity firm, which would mean you can return really or expect really similar returns to what they may receive there.
44:15.80
Spencer Lunghino
Now, there's a bunch of nuance on that. So, I think it's very important to ask the question of, hey, this rollover equity that I'm taking, is it in the same class of shares? Is it is it treated fairly relative to all your other investors?
44:33.66
Spencer Lunghino
And I would ask specifically about the private equity firms are invested in the company as well as the original founders. I think if the answer to that is yes, it's a really good sign.
44:44.20
Spencer Lunghino
um And that's part of why we set the equity up the way that we did here at ROC. Everyone is invested in the same classes of equity and everyone is treated fairly and similarly on that side of things. So that's one point.
44:58.07
Spencer Lunghino
And then just a final one I wanted to throw out a little bit is the compare contrast with joint venture, which I think is really interesting. So um when a private equity firm invests in a DSO, um they are never investing at the joint venture level.
45:16.88
Spencer Lunghino
So private equity investors are generally speaking pretty pretty smart, pretty good investors. They make really great returns. Where they put their money as at is at the total company level.
45:28.89
Spencer Lunghino
And that's where they feel like they can return the most dollars to their investors they do not invest in the joint venture level. So I think that is telling in itself in terms of, Hey, where is the real and where is the big financial opportunity as it relates to the overall partnership fit.
45:46.58
Spencer Lunghino
Uh, and part of why, um, when we're having conversation with folks on, um Hey, do you do a joint venture? Do you not do a joint venture? We're open to looking at both, but we all in almost every scenario we advise, Hey, we really think the longterm appreciation potential for you is in that total company equity.
46:07.18
Spencer Lunghino
And by the way,
46:10.14
Spencer Lunghino
In practicality, you'll find it affords you as a doctor, as an owner, a lot more flexibility on your decision making in the future too, which is another piece that that isn't talked about as much as it relates to the joint venture model there.
46:21.93
Spencer Lunghino
So more than you asked for, but I wanted to share a couple of thoughts on that front.
46:22.59
Dustin Burleson
Yeah. No, yeah it's brilliant. And we could do another hour on the joint venture model and don't get me started because you know if that goes south, who's who's available to buy that back from you?
46:30.42
Spencer Lunghino
Yes.
46:34.07
Dustin Burleson
well One person maybe.
46:35.96
Spencer Lunghino
That's right. That's right.
46:36.87
Dustin Burleson
well we can We can maybe do a mastermind on that. I want to do ah a group answer to the final question so everyone gets to it's to to contribute. But I to start with an acknowledgement and that in dentistry and orthodontics, we're typically pretty risk-averse people, which is really good in clinical patient care.
46:55.21
Dustin Burleson
right I don't want Dr. Date going, you know what? I had an artistic vision on the way to the office today.
46:58.62
Kristi Casey
Thank you.
46:59.66
Dustin Burleson
And I thought instead of putting the braces on this way, was just going to flip them upside down. And normally we start with a light round wire, but let's start with our heavy steel wire. like We don't take a lot of risk in patient care, and that's good.
47:10.23
Dustin Burleson
really I don't want my surgeon trying a new incision technique for the first time this morning on a whim. um But in business, that can trip us up. And so the question is really wise. And and Spencer was it wass really great in helping us develop some really thoughtful questions.
47:20.48
Mark Dake
you
47:24.11
Dustin Burleson
And that is... how do ah How do I avoid choosing the wrong DSO? And I want to flip it because I think it's so smart. It's how Warren Buffett, it's how Charlie Munger approached business problems.
47:36.26
Dustin Burleson
They don't say, how do I succeed? Because there's like a million ways you could go try. They say, what would really screw this up? And how do I never go there? I think Charlie Munger said, find out where you' where you'll die and never go there.
47:47.76
Dustin Burleson
find out what'll kill the deal and never go there. um So how do we avoid never going there? How do we avoid choosing the wrong, instead of, so the risk averse dentist, and I'm one of these, goes, oh God, how do I choose the right DSO?
48:02.22
Dustin Burleson
And then you just, think about it forever, right? You never make a decision. Instead of thinking, how do I choose the right DSO? Maybe we can make some forward progress by thinking, how do I avoid choosing the wrong DSO? And that might move the needle.
48:17.16
Dustin Burleson
So whoever wants to hop in first, I'm a dentist. I want to meet with Spencer at the AO, an orthodontist. And I'm thinking, how do I avoid choosing the wrong DSO? Who wants to go first on that question?
48:28.74
Spencer Lunghino
you
48:31.36
Kristi Casey
I would just say, yeah I would just say, you know, we're asking for a big time investment to come see us.
48:31.58
Mark Dake
I have to see.
48:39.62
Kristi Casey
But don't just come see us, go see everyone that you're considering. It is a time investment, but this is your new, these are your new partners. And you have to feel comfortable having real transparent conversations, being able to ask them the hard conversations, seeing what they've built, seeing if they can deliver on what they're promising you.
49:00.06
Kristi Casey
um because the worst thing that can happen is you wake up two years from now and you find out that you didn't ask all the questions, that you should have asked these questions. And so we don't get upset at all if you bring a whole laundry list of every question.
49:13.50
Kristi Casey
Like, great, let's sit down and talk through it. It's not a waste of time to us. We want to get to know you, too, as as future partners. And so don't be afraid to go for the visit. Ask the tough questions.
49:25.38
Kristi Casey
I know it's hard and it's time consuming. um and talk to as many of the doctors as you can. I think that's important. and i know Spencer mentioned that as well, but I want to echo that. And, you know, where where do they see themselves in five years, in 10 years?
49:42.64
Dustin Burleson
Great question. That's a great question. Hopefully not all running for the exits. Dr. Dake, any advice on how to avoid choosing the wrong DSO?
49:51.75
Mark Dake
Well, um I'm a mongerite also. So I think what they how they invest is they try to find the very best company that has the best management team and then they never sell it.
49:54.88
Kristi Casey
says
50:03.87
Dustin Burleson
Yep.
50:04.73
Mark Dake
or they sell small parts of it at appropriate times. so
50:07.90
Kristi Casey
That's right.
50:07.88
Mark Dake
I think that's the key. You need to, if you're gonna roll your equity into our business, that means you you are taking a a risk or a confident risk in in our business.
50:18.88
Mark Dake
And so just look look at our business.
50:20.45
Spencer Lunghino
you
50:21.49
Mark Dake
know If you wanna ask some financial questions, we'll all sign an NDA and we'll we'll share um you know those that information because that it's your it's your money that you're rolling you're investing and we believe it's a great investment uh all of our doctors feel like it's great investment and we want you to feel that way too right
50:43.13
Dustin Burleson
It is. I just echo when else in history will dentists get the chance to invest in something at the level of private equity with long-term cap gains versus net ordinary income tax.
50:50.04
Spencer Lunghino
you
50:55.26
Dustin Burleson
It's just, we've got this great lightning in the bottle opportunity and it's a wonderful profession, wonderful time.
50:56.43
Mark Dake
right
51:01.11
Dustin Burleson
and Spencer, want to wrap us up with how to avoid the wrong DSO? Then I want to make sure we give everyone a chance to figure out how to get in touch with you. We'll put that in the show notes, but we'll talk about how they can reach out to you. We'll make sure we mention that at the end.
51:12.51
Spencer Lunghino
Absolutely. ah So I'm one of those risk adverse people as well. ah So I think about that a lot. um And for me, probably where my mind goes is fundamentals. I think over the short term, ah you can have fluctuations and you can have blips.
51:28.15
Spencer Lunghino
But I'd say if I was trying to avoid partnering with the wrong DSO, I would say who has the strongest fundamentals, who's set up for the long term, um who, not to say that, yeah, anyway, ah who is ah a financial flip, who's a financial roll-up, those generally speaking are the ones that aren't set up for the long term.
51:48.76
Spencer Lunghino
um I think some situations that overuse a joint venture partnership model, that can be a sign. Maybe they don't have the right fundamentals, but Go see it for yourself. Like k Kristi said, have the conversations, including like the really small micro ones. They're important.
52:04.85
Spencer Lunghino
You unearth the details on, hey, ah you know, is the support really there? Is the thinking really there? And I think you'll very quickly see who has those fundamentals to support, who's actually thought through these topics and has a ah really thoughtful way to approach them together in a ah partner-like manner.
52:23.53
Spencer Lunghino
So anyway, that's what I'd say.
52:24.95
Mark Dake
you know I might add something real quickly here.
52:25.19
Dustin Burleson
Awesome.
52:29.53
Mark Dake
You know, our our goal from the very beginning was not to be the biggest DSO out there.
52:29.67
Spencer Lunghino
you
52:34.15
Mark Dake
our Our goal was to grow a business that we can be proud of 50 years from now. And so we haven't grown the fastest. We haven't grown the slowest. But we've tried to maintain strong financial position all the way through, and we have.
52:49.57
Mark Dake
And so that's that's probably the key, I think, to looking at and groups to partner with is is really just kind of look at what what are their long-term goals, and and that's what ours is.
53:02.32
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's so powerful.
53:02.47
Spencer Lunghino
you
53:03.28
Dustin Burleson
Again, I could do a whole other hour on that. It still reminds me of that podcast on Rolex and some of the best firms in the world that intentionally set out for strategic, steady growth. And they don't take the quick wins when there's a big market, you know, you know big swell up because they know operationally that's really hard to suffer the downturn.
53:17.05
Mark Dake
Right.
53:22.92
Dustin Burleson
So it's an incredibly strategic group. I'm honored to know each of you. and i appreciate you coming on the show. Every time we spend time together, i learn a lot. and I know our members and our listeners get a tremendous amount of value.
53:35.51
Dustin Burleson
I could talk forever, but I can't do that because you all are very busy and have very important things to go do. But I do want to make sure, Spencer, if you want to give a a website, I know we can push in the show notes, probably um if there's a ah URL or a quick way we can make sure everyone listening can also remember to get in touch with you and and continue the conversation.
53:55.39
Spencer Lunghino
Absolutely. We'll get that to you. Do you want me to say any of that? or
53:58.27
Dustin Burleson
If you got it, we could throw it in the end here. Is it is it join rock dental brands.com? Is that the one we'll edit it right here? So.
54:04.50
Spencer Lunghino
Yeah, I'd say spencer.Lunghino at rockdentalbrands.com.
54:08.83
Dustin Burleson
Okay.
54:09.59
Spencer Lunghino
We're happy to have a conversation with ah anyone that would like to learn a little bit more about us or just to talk generally on the industry and and how to think about partnerships.
54:17.95
Dustin Burleson
Cool. let me I'm going to give a clap right here, which will spike the audio and tell my guy I want to edit this. So give me like two seconds here And then we're gonna after this clap, Spencer, we're going wrap with just kind of like, give them your email and then we'll we'll just let you finish. Is that cool?
54:31.33
Spencer Lunghino
Perfect. Sounds great.
54:31.98
Dustin Burleson
Awesome. All right. If you've got earphones in or earbuds, you're going to get a loud click. Hang tight.
54:38.29
Dustin Burleson
All right. Let's make sure everyone knows how to reach out to you, Spencer. And again, thank you all for being here. It's been such an honor.
54:46.01
Mark Dake
Thank you.
54:46.21
Spencer Lunghino
Yes, please ah please reach out to us at spencer.lungino at rockdentalbrands.com. We look forward to having a conversation with anyone that'd like to learn more about a partnership or or just talk generally on the industry.
54:58.80
Spencer Lunghino
So thank you, Dr. Burleson, for having us.
55:00.99
Kristi Casey
Thank you.
55:01.11
Dustin Burleson
Cool. Thank you guys.