As the founder and host of The Learning Leader Show, a leadership podcast with millions of listeners in more than 150 countries, Ryan Hawk inspires excellence in leaders looking to take their game to the next level. Forbes called his first book Welcome to Management – How to Grow From Top Performer to Excellent Leader, “the best leadership book of 2020.” Hawk's second book, The Pursuit of Excellence, sold through its first print run in eight hours. It explores the uncommon behaviors of the world’s most productive achievers. Forbes wrote, “The Pursuit of Excellence is the most dynamic leadership book of 2022 delivering a masterclass on how to apply the most useful habits to real life.” In this episode, Ryan Hawk and Dustin Burleson dive deep into the concept of excellence, exploring the difference between external and internal scoreboards, the role of self-awareness in achieving excellence, and practical strategies for overcoming fear and resistance.
Ryan Hawk discusses the impact of external scoreboards on our sense of self-worth and the importance of distinguishing between external validation and internal fulfillment. He explores how societal norms often dictate how success is measured and how this can limit our potential for growth and excellence.
Using examples from Serena Williams to Thomas Edison, Hawk challenge the conventional definition of success and encourages listeners to pursue excellence on their own terms. We examine common pitfalls in how society measures success and offer insights into unlocking one's highest potential.
On the topics of self-awareness and excellence, Hawk emphasizes the role of self-awareness as the foundation for excellence, highlighting the difference between success and excellence. We discuss the importance of introspection and continuous improvement in the pursuit of personal and professional growth. Drawing from a story about President Obama's speechwriter, Cody Keenan, listeners can explore the nature of fear and strategies for overcoming it.
In the tradition of stoicism, Hawk discuss the significance of contemplating mortality as a means of living a more fulfilling life, including the exercise of writing one's own eulogy. Listeners will learn how confronting the reality of death can cultivate a sense of urgency and clarity in pursuing meaningful goals.
The E + R = O Formula. Hawk unpacks the formula introduced by performance coach Tim Kight, emphasizing the importance of focusing on one's response to events. We review practical applications of the formula in personal and professional contexts, highlighting the power of mindset in shaping outcomes.
Hawk shares a personal anecdote from caddying for his brother at the Tahoe Celebrity Golf Tournament, emphasizing the importance of focusing on one's own journey. We introduce the concept of Level 5 moments, defining them as transformative experiences that reveal one's true character and explore the significance of these moments in shaping personal and professional development and offer strategies for recognizing and embracing them.
Join us for this thought-provoking exploration of excellence, self-awareness, and the pursuit of meaningful success. Hawk and Cupps provide actionable insights and inspiring anecdotes that challenge listeners to redefine their approach to personal and professional growth.
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00:00.00
Dustin Burleson
Or everyone I'm so excited to welcome Ryan Hawk to the program Ryan thanks for being here you yeah, your books are awesome. You introduce us to coach cups who we also had on the show. He's amazing. So thank you? Thank you? Thank you.
00:03.83
Ryan Hawk
Thanks for having me Dustin. It's good to talk to you man.
00:11.88
Ryan Hawk
No I love him. He's the best.
00:15.50
Dustin Burleson
Your new book is the score that matters growing excellence and yourself and those you lead I'm curious tell us why you wrote the book and anything that surprised you when you were researching and writing the score that matters.
00:28.30
Ryan Hawk
So Brook and I about almost two years ago now sat down to film what was going to be an online course and I had um I filmed filmed the course before and one of the things I regretted. The first time was that I didn't have. Somebody sitting next to me transcribing it and so I I brought a friend of mine to do that named Dan Smith and Dan sat right next to us and and wrote out everything we we said over the course of 8 hours in that day and as I looked the transcripts I I felt like there's so much good stuff especially from Brook so much good stuff here. That I thought it it was a book. We didn't have the title yet we didn't have really even the full outline. We just had a long transcript of notes and ideas and thoughts that we had both shared because we kind of riffed throughout the the bulk of the recording we had ah like a topic and then we would just riff off of that topic and figured we would edit it down later to make a. Useful course. So ah, that's that's ultimately why I thought it could be a book is because I've learned so much from book Brook when it comes to core values and the behaviors to match and understanding your purpose and how if you do all of that hard work on yourself which by the way never ends. It'll give you a good shot to I think be more fulfilled to impact more people to impact them in a bigger way and I thought ah a book is an artifact that hopefully could could could play a role in helping us do that for people.
01:52.62
Dustin Burleson
It's such an awesome book. Thank you for writing it I want to kind of start with the core concept with this idea of the external versus the internal scoreboard you cite Andrew Carnegie he calls it the judge within yeah.
02:02.64
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, the judge within? yeah yeah, yeah.
02:08.24
Dustin Burleson
Tell me a little bit about what what you've learned you know and and you're working with high performers and pursuing excellence from the sports world to the business world. Yeah.
02:13.92
Ryan Hawk
I mean I I think yeah for the most part. It's very easy, especially today to live for the external scoreboard because you can compare yourself to others 24 hours a day just just open up any of the social media apps and. You can easily compare yourself you like oh you feel bad about the fact that you weren't at the party or that your friends are doing things that are so much fun and you're not there or that people are ah posting about all the accomplishments whether it's ah jobs or winning games or championships or bestseller list. Whatever it may be and.
02:53.16
Ryan Hawk
As as you know, probably we've all probably ah struggled with that from time to time and every time when I get into that rut of making these comparisons based on external things especially with other people I feel really bad I don't feel like I make progress it almost paralyzes you for for a moment. It doesn't inspire me. It doesn't help me or I don't think it pushes me forward. However, when I analyze myself and what I'm trying to do and what I value and how I can make those values true. Um, and then I see progress and I see growth and I see improvement I get. A lot of energy from that then I see the impact that the stuff that I'm doing has on other people. Um, that's like living in my purpose I feel extreme energy and I just get better and better and better and better and that's I think how to live with what we're talking about when it comes to the internal scoreboard as opposed to the external one. And we want to like help light people up and help more people do that because then it'll have a greater impact on even more people and so it's kind of ah a cool flywheel that we're trying to get started and and to me that's the biggest difference from living ah through your internal versus your external scoreboard.
04:03.51
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's incredibly powerful right? And you quote some really brilliant people like Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett who were big fans of here at belinson seminars and I think Munger said you know he's never really been envious of anyone because there's always going to be someone.
04:07.11
Ryan Hawk
Statement.
04:18.44
Ryan Hawk
Always.
04:20.11
Dustin Burleson
Doing more than you are you know, running fast or making more bigger house larger business and it's just this really dangerous place to be um, you say in the book that self-awareness is where we should start I Want to kind of dig into that a little bit. You know what?? What's the difference between first success and excellence. And then what's required in this kind of self-awareness dive if we really want to Pursue excellence.
04:45.33
Ryan Hawk
So success success and excellence as we define it at least is I think success is a comparison with others and excellence is more about maximizing your potential. Um, and so it's it's not necessarily comparing yourself against your previous self but there are elements of that to it. So to me i. Love Pat Riley's definition of excellence which it's the gradual gradual result of always striving to do better. So that's just what naturally will happen again like like our our book is similar and entitled to Bill Walsh's book the score takes care of itself meaning if you do all of the behaviors right. Champions behave like champion long before they win a championship. That's the type of ah what we're when we talk about success versus excellence. Um, so I think that's that that's the the big part there. What was the second part of your question.
05:29.10
Dustin Burleson
I was curious like if you thought self-aware in the book. You'd say it's kind of the the the the place we should start on the path to excellence I would talk a little bit about self-wareness.
05:35.30
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, yeah, well I mean could you could probably all like we all envision that whether it's a boss or a person or life or maybe more multiple people in our life that don't have that awareness of themselves and even how they show up in the world in the in the. The way that they're impacting other people whether it's good or bad and we also probably know those people in our lives that um are very comfortable in their own skin. They seem to have a great feel for the way they move and the way they impact people they they have an understanding of how what they do and say impacts. Others versus the ones who don't and so I think that's really what self-awareness is all about Tasha Yurik you' has written many books on self-awareness and the fact that we all think we're self-aware but the the unfortunate reality is very few people actually are about 10 to 15% have that down and I think the people who I'm most attracted to the ones who. Who I think have the biggest impact they've done a lot of work on themselves in order to have a better understanding of themselves and 1 example of that would be that they've done a really good job of surrounding themselves. Whether Brook would call them foxhole friends or your kitchen cabinet or your personal board. Of advisors whatever you want to call but you have these people in your life that you let them know that you want and seek their feedback you want the truth and that you can handle the truth and that they are they have are a person of significance in your life who.
07:06.44
Ryan Hawk
You trust and believe in and you will listen to and that doesn't have to be a huge list of people. But I think the most self-aware people that I found seem to do a really good job of surrounding themselves with others who are also very high performers who have high standards who value excellence and. They're willing to tell the truth even when it hurts and those are the friends and the people in my life that I value the most and I also try to be that for that for them as Well. It's not easy to find but super effective if you can if you can build that ah board of advisor for for yourself and you be that for others.
07:40.97
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it, you just covered it so well in the book and I just I mean it was ah it was a kind of a you know I think really brilliant way to approach this success versus excellence in that to you know, go back and quote coach Riley. You know it's ah it's more long term right? I guess and in adding friends and getting a good group of ah you know, ah people you surround yourself with like that doesn't happen overnight. Would you say success is more like short-term wins like you signed the contract you got the deal. You got the promotion that excellence is more of a. A long game is that kind of how you see it.
08:12.59
Ryan Hawk
Probably and it's even more like it's not a perfect match but even more like the transactional versus transformational relationships I I think I don't I just literally just got off a call with a longtime client and. Ah, when we when they first engaged me just to give a 1 hour speech this was three years ago um you know right out of the pandemic and um I I told them I'm like look I'd not I don't look to build a client base. That's just a series of transactions where maybe we do one or 2 things I want to get clients for life and so i. I think there's a more transformational way to view it a more long-term approach. So maybe you have fewer but better relationships and and so I yeah I mean that's how I I like to think about this is it would be more enjoyable more fulfilling more um. I'd probably get to get better and better and better if I'm building relationships with people that we view it like we're in this for the long term. Yes, there are transactional things of life. We go to the drive through and get food. That's a transaction we have other things like that. But I but for the most part I want to be building transformational long term relationships and in all things that I do friends. Obviously my wife um and then even with my clients like I want to work the the ones I work with I I want to work with them for a really long time.
09:31.00
Dustin Burleson
I love that mean you hit some heavy topics in the book. We talk about fear you talk about resistance and passion and when I kind of dig into fear you share a really cool story about president Obama's speechwriter which I never knew I'd never heard of Cody Kean but that was a really really cool story.
09:46.29
Ryan Hawk
Um, Cody yeah.
09:50.53
Dustin Burleson
Anything you learned about fear in your conversation with Cody that surprised you or or maybe just yeah.
09:52.30
Ryan Hawk
I think if fear it can be I mean I we I you know I remember going really hard in that section because of I I enjoyed that conversation with Cody on my podcast and then him and doing even more research after he told me how much like he used fear. When he's writing the state of the union address I mean that is a massive amount of pressure and yeah, like a bit of an imposter too like and so he he always said I I would do whatever it took to make this speech sing and I just love that thought like when I think of speaking or helping I love I want to do whatever it takes to make it sing. Like so my car is the first one there in the morning and sometimes it doesn't leave for a couple of days because I'll do whatever it takes to help my boss I'll do whatever it takes and so the reason that he was able to work so hard and that he he made so many speeches sing is because he was so scared. He was so scared to let his boss down. He's so scared to let the country down because his boss the most powerful person in the world. He's giving these speeches and does he is ah president Obama is is a writer right? So he knows that if it's bad. He can rewrite but still he is the one writing the bulk of that material to then give to him and if. He does a poor job. 1 He's going to get fired and it it won't come across to make a difference for our country and so I like to use fear as fuel I've been scared just to to do but just about everything I got I I was fortunate and got it lucky that my high school coaches thought I was good enough to be our starting quarterback as a freshman at Centerville high school.
11:25.91
Ryan Hawk
Had never been done before and I was scared to death I wasn't like excited I was more scared to let my teammates down and so that fear fueled me to to be as prepared as I possibly could be for those games the fear of getting up on a stage in front of 1000 people is fuel for me to practice and practice and get coaches and invest in myself and and get feedback to say is this good enough is this good enough. How could it be better. What could I do so I think people can use fear as a motivating fuel to to do excellent work now. Is that tiring does it burn you out at times. Maybe maybe there's some like you know any type of fuel can get out of hand but I but to me I think for the most part it's it served me well and it seems like it served others wells. Um, when they've when they've used it to to help them do good work. So.
12:17.59
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it was. It was just really it stood out to me in the book because I think most people the common thought or how the average person would approach fear or they see you know something in their Instagram feed that says like you know like. You should have no fear like you you know you just like totally be fearless in life. First of all, it's completely ridiculous, but second it can actually be a really positive emotion if you harness it in the in the right channel and and it followed in the book talking about resistance and you so you cite.
12:45.10
Ryan Hawk
Um, yeah.
12:47.47
Dustin Burleson
Stephen Pressfield and you got some great people on your podcast like the great Jim Collins I want to talk about resistance because a lot of people think okay, that's the hard way I'm going to try to find a way around it right? like they want to do their passion but they want it to be easy. You know what have you learned in in using resistance to actually point you. In the right direction.
13:06.34
Ryan Hawk
Well, you know you you mentioned pressfield and that's he's been a ah ah big motivator of of mine. Um, that usually like the hard ways. The best way I got again I got lucky early on in my career that um when I was tabbed to to be. Ah. A football player on our our varsity team which had this amazingly rich tradition of of winning tons of games over the decades before I even got there and legendary head coach Bob Greg often coordinator Ron Olery who are the greatest but the fact that those january and February and then June July and August workouts were so hard and. The heart is what makes them good I cite the Jimmy dugin quote from from a league of their own right? The heart is what makes it great because Dotty Hinson in that movie Gina Davis and ah Tom Hanks are in that that amazing scene where she's like it just got too hard. It's like the hard is what makes it great if it wasn't hard. Everybody could do it. And that's again, um, it reminds me actually when I was a new manager and I had people like complaining and crying and I was probably doing a really bad job and I called my dad I'm like this is terrible I do not like. I didn't know it was going to be like this I thought I'd just like run the team meetings and we do trainings and then it would you know we'd crush our number I didn't realize there's gonna be so many like people issues and hiring and firing and personal lives that are getting in the way like all this stuff and my dad said hey dude if it wasn't hard. They wouldn't need you.
14:37.74
Ryan Hawk
Managers don't need to exist if everything's going great like that's why leadership exists and I was like ah like you you should actually be grateful that that stuff is there or else they literally would not need you there. They would just fire all the managers. And and sometimes companies do that right? They lay off like levels of management because like what are they doing they they don't They don't do anything. They don't need them there and so be the hard is what makes it good. The resistance.. The tough thing is what I think usually on the other side of that is a good. Result like this book. For example, it was really hard to go back and forth and figure out what should we keep in and you know we're writing with somebody else. We Both have very demanding schedules and you know different times we could write and Talk. It was really hard but look at it now like you sounds like you've you've dug into it all Away. We're so grateful and glad that we went through the hard stuff in order to now get to the the reward of having the artifact out there to hopefully help a lot of people So The hard usually is pointing you in the direction that there's there. There could be some good things on the other end of it.
15:39.91
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's huge pearl worth. Everyone's time listening if your if your employees as a leader in your business are coming to you with just the easy stuff or you've either not train them well or you know you're You're not what.
15:48.34
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, yeah.
15:56.82
Dustin Burleson
As a leader you know like you you want the hard stuff showing up so that you have a job or it's something. Ah, yeah, yeah is so it's great. Ah you I was reading through I think maybe I don't know if it's chapter 3 or 4 but 1 of the exercises you all suggest in the book.
16:00.37
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true as as weird as it sounds. It's true.
16:14.65
Dustin Burleson
Is to write our own eulogy and that kind of smack me in the forehead. What is it about the reality of death that can actually help us live better lives. Do you think.
16:14.88
Ryan Hawk
Here here.
16:22.26
Ryan Hawk
Well with there's these eulogy virtues and resume virtues a lot of us and death I'm definitely I was one of them and and still working through this live for the resume you live for the title you live for the money you're just thinking about that. You. You know, maybe travel too much and and and and don't understand the importance of like being with your kids whatever it may be and writing your eulogy and and we have a specific way that we do it where you write it in the voice of somebody that is very important to you. So usually it's a child like. In my case I chose it for my youngest child hopefully because that means I live a long life. But um I think I wrote it in her voice as a way of saying this is how my dad showed up and when you do it from that perspective you start thinking about like being present in their lives. And the other people in the world that you impact and like the little things you do like leaving on the hot summer day at three thirty to go the pool so you can throw her in the air and she screams with joy right? like all of that type of stuff and so when you write your eulogy. Usually it's focused on character and impact and the way you made people feel rarely. Do you listen to a eulogy when you're actually at a funeral. Do you hear them talk about how much money somebody made or the car they drove or the title that they have maybe if they like started a business I guess it could because.
17:52.53
Ryan Hawk
Maybe they were able to employ a lot of people and change lives like so there could be a little bit of that. But for the most part when you go and like think about death and I wrote about Michael Easter and and him going to but Bhutan and all of the crazy things he learned that they think about death all the time because it inspires them to live a more fulfilling life. And so I've I've run the eulog exercise with all the leaders I work with Brook does too. We. We really like this it. It gets pretty deep. There certainly are times when when when we're sheding tears. But I think that like one that that's a good thing is it helps the group get closer but it also helps people get much more real. It helps them like fully understand. What's most important that doesn't mean that you don't work and you don't like make money you got to do that right? You gotta support your family It's part of the deal but it but maybe it just helps shift your perspective a little bit more to focus more on eulogy virtues as opposed to only the resume virtues.
18:43.99
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's it's just but I love that I think it'd be a great exercise for listeners here to do might do that at a seminar we'll give you full credit. We'll steal that idea and really.
18:52.20
Ryan Hawk
Highly recommend it man you should. It's it's fun and then I don't know say fun I yeah I actually think it is kind of fun just to hear what people value what? what's important to people to hear their name like in the third person. It's weird to write the way, especially you as written from the perspective of somebody.
19:01.51
Dustin Burleson
Um, yeah.
19:11.70
Ryan Hawk
That they love more than anything in the world. Um I promise like if you did this as at a team retreat or an offsite which we've done before you learn a lot about the people like we have a few exercises where you can really learn a lot but about people this is definitely ah 1 of the best ones.
19:24.76
Dustin Burleson
Yeah I will also want to get and share your formula I think as cited from coach Tim Kite E Plus R equals o and we'll and we'll dig into that but I I kind of want to get it like print it up on wristbands and give it to give it to my 3 sons right? so so powerful these
19:32.19
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
19:38.48
Ryan Hawk
Um, yeah.
19:41.65
Dustin Burleson
Principles I think we can share with others. So what is EPlusREquals o and you know maybe how how do you think we could help others learn about that.
19:49.55
Ryan Hawk
Yeah I mean that Tim and Brian Kite had them both on. Ah love both those guys father and son um e is the event r is how you choose to respond will then equal and determine the outcome so e plus r equals o event response outcome I to. To me like the the one guarantee in life is that you're going to face setbacks and adversity ah over and over and over some of it will be amazingly unfair at just the the reality of life the difference between. I think the people who sustain excellence over time and those who don't is that they focus so much on that r on their arm on how they respond and because of that their outcomes are better. They may on the outside. It may look like they're lucky or like good things like just seem to happen to them for no reason. I would bet the luckiest people are the best at responding when adversity strikes and it's and responding when things go well right? Some people don't do a good job with that either. So to me, it's just like really thinking about in the moment like conditioning your mind to think how am I going to respond regardless of what happens. Especially as a leader with a team. Another thing I learned from my dad is like when you get good news or bad news and you're in front of your team they are watching you very closely. They're seeing how you respond this definitely comes up I'm sure you'd see it as a dad like they're watching to see how you respond when somebody misbehaves or when somebody does something bad or whatever like.
21:19.47
Ryan Hawk
Remember getting pulled over because I was speeding with my daughters in the in the backseat and you know probably shouldn't be doing I was on a highway. It was a long road trip. Whatever and I'm like they're watching to see how I respond to this police officer. How am I going to treat them with respect am I going to lie to them and I remember the police officer officer walked up to the door and I said I'm very sorry. I know I was speeding I don't know exactly how fast I was going but I'm I'm very sorry for doing this?? Um, and I remember the police officer like it completely changed how most of those interactions go he was very kind. Very nice. He told me I was going too fast Luckily I wasn't going that so fast that I had to get a ticket and he said I'm just going to give you a warning. Thank you for being honest and I'll send you on your way and so my daughter's got to see and I had no idea how interaction was going to go you see like hey when it happens be respectful Tell them, you're sorry and tell them the truth. Usually that's a good kind of way to live life. Be respectful if you if you messed up say you're sorry and and and and tell the truth.
22:06.86
Dustin Burleson
Um, yeah.
22:17.26
Ryan Hawk
And I think like all that stuff matters like that's an r right? That was a response instead of saying like mother f the guy and be really upset and like hit your steering wheel because I actually believe this I don't want to pay a ticket all you know? Um, but I wasn't in my home state of Ohio all this stuff you you could respond that way. How do you think that's impacting your kids. How do you think that's going to go with the police officer. All these things happen and that's all about how you choose to respond and so I just think that's a good um equation to have in your mind because you literally face that stuff all the time you face events all the time. You get to choose how you're going to respond as well. And so think about your response and how it's going to impact the outcome, especially for the people that are important to you that you're leading in your life.
23:02.90
Dustin Burleson
I Yeah I Really like that I and I if I could go back and teach my younger self. You know one thing it'd be like give right? give yourself a little more time for the response right? It's just like emotionally reha. Yeah.
23:07.92
Ryan Hawk
oh yeah oh I messed that up so much man. Yeah, well yeah, that that the whole Liz Weissman create a buffer between create a a little bit of a buffer between the stimulus stimulus and your response and so like maybe you're having a disagreement with your spouse like. Instead of just immediately firing back something stupid again which I've done. Let's just pause for a second you know like let's create a little bit of a buffer and maybe you'll respond better as opposed to just reacting wildly.
23:36.62
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, it's great. Great advice. You have such a cool story about working on ourselves versus comparing ourselves to others getting back to this internal external scoreboard. Ah, can you share the story about caddying for your brother a j at the tahoe celebrity golf tournament I think a few years yeah
23:53.74
Ryan Hawk
Oh man. So yeah, this just happened actually um so last summer ah we he goes my brother plays in this celebrity golf tur in Lake Ta we've been going for I think it's been fourteen years now every summer never miss in July it's one of the best weeks of the year for us get to hang out. You know, walk side by side with your brother for four days it is a really cool thing swimm in the lake in the morning with his sun's coming up. You know, get to just get to like talk about whatever and 18 holes. It's kind of a long walk. But anyway, um, this day we're paired with Rob Wriggle Rob Riggle is amazing guy so kind. Super nice. You know, hilarious obviously been in been in some of your favorite movies and Tv shows. But. We're we're pair of them and and Rob's caddy um is a woman who also very nice sweet kind and it was obvious like after 1 hole. She knew her way around a course like I was like oh she. She must be a golfer and I asked her her name is ah she asked me about my relation. My name my relation to you know why are you caddding for aj like I were brothers and I said how about you said my name is cas I'm I'm I'm cuttingtting for Rob we're dating and I'm I'm a golfer I'm a pro golfer. Like oh wow, that's cool so you can like help me help me out and she's like sure you know whatever week I'll read the greens. Whatever it's a celebrity termur. It's not a real tourment in real tournament. You're actually not allowed to have other caddies help you out reading greens and stuff. But it's whatever we we do it for fun. So Cass is you know going back and forth and we're having ah a good banter a j and Rob are having fun.
25:20.60
Ryan Hawk
And I I don't remember exactly what hole it was I think it was still on the front 9 and ah a j had already like hit some bombs and some of his drives ah like he hits in a mile but some of them don't always go exactly where you want it to go because you know when you swing as hard as you can and you're not a real golfer sometimes the ball goes left or right? Whatever anyway. He's he's like every he's wow in the crowd and wowing everybody I notice on I believe was whole number 9 he's getting ready to hit in cas is like really she's trying to be quiet because he's he's he's lining up ah to hit the ball and you you got to stay quiet but she's like pointing at him and like trying to get his eyes and like like hey Rob Bra Rob Bra stop like stop looking at him stop watching him and I thought it was really bizarre and it was weird. She's like look at me look at me look at me like don't look at him look at me and so after everybody had teed off. Um, we're walking down the fairway and and the aj and Robert talking I just walked up to her and I said hey I noticed you like yelling at Rob not to watch him swing. Um, what. What's like what's that all about and she said when you're playing golf you got to focus on your own swing I said what do you mean like well a j swings violently. He's younger than Rob, he's a professional athlete. He just by watching him swing too many times Rob's body will naturally speed up. And that will completely mess up his swing. He needs to be swinging at the tempo that we've practiced like casts is a real golfer and I go. What do you mean? she goes. He won't even realize that his body is speeding up it. It will just happen because he's been watching this guy swing so violently and that will mess up his his teeshots and I don't want that happen.
26:57.72
Ryan Hawk
Ah, wow I go well well, you're a golfer. What do you do and she goes I never watched my competitor's tea off I look straight down the fairway or I talk with my caddie so I don't watch them because I don't want to be influenced by how they swing whether it's fast or slow and it was just this. It just brought it to life I'm like what a great metaphor for life like. Focus on your swing focus on what you're doing. It doesn't mean like you don't watch people to be inspired. But but when you're thinking about like the way you approach it when you focus on yourself again that that is ah like let's not be looking at Instagram at everybody's highlight reels. Let's focusing on ourselves. And then improving ourselves so we can get better and better and better as opposed to always comparing ourselves to other people.
27:40.38
Dustin Burleson
It's huge and for our listeners We we do this every year we go to annual meetings and people bring their best cases. Their best outcomes with patients are their best marketing campaigns and you know and then you know you look at that and go like well you know I need to do that. You're like wait a minute.
27:55.55
Ryan Hawk
Um, yeah.
27:56.22
Dustin Burleson
That practices in Oklahoma you're in New York City is totally different patient population like it's so easy to compare ourselves to others and we should just work on ourselves I love that story because I think you're right every pro golfer I've ever seen. They are not looking at their their their.
28:00.73
Ryan Hawk
Yeah.
28:12.24
Dustin Burleson
People they're paired up with they're looking straight down the fairway and you're you're right? You would start to mirror that moment. Imagine right.
28:13.20
Ryan Hawk
Yeah here without even realizing I didn't think of it that way is like you won't even even if you intend not to just by watching you might swing a little bit harder and all of a sudden you know club face and Square up on the ball and it goes wherever and yeah, it's It's pretty wild.
28:28.51
Dustin Burleson
Yeah I mean Rob Briggle probably is a great golfer but he's no a J Hawk professional athlete
28:34.13
Ryan Hawk
He's pretty good. He's pretty good I mean he didn't have the same power but he's but he's pretty good. He got. He definitely got a lot better since he started dating Cas cause she's the real golfer so she she helps out. It's pretty pretty fun. Yeah, thank.
28:41.94
Dustin Burleson
That's awesome. That's cool. It's cool you teach in the book that not all moments are created equal. We want I why I want to talk about level 5 moments I really like this concept. What are they why are they important what can we learn about ourselves from these moments.
28:57.65
Ryan Hawk
Well I lo I moment them. So really, the moments that kind of are like the inflection points of your life that they they leave a mark on you that will change you in some way shape or form whether it's a person a relationship a conversation. Um a game. Um, any any of the biggest moments that are most memorable that impact you and and Brook tells a great story about um, walking at the fair ah with his with his dad. He grew up in a little bit more rural rural place than I did in Ohio and he had seen somebody that. Um. It was obvious that they were struggling financially poor and Brook made fun of them and his dad just smacked them right across the mouth and was like when you're making fun of them. You're making fun of me that was me when I was growing up and he said it. It was a level 5 moment because he and he's never forgotten. He still told me that story multiple times and brought it up and. Speeches we do together of like there are these pivotal moments that just leave a mark and you remember forever and so it's really about like remembering those collecting those being aware of those and seeing how they impact you as you progress and using those to get better using those to understand what you value and your purpose. There's level 5 moments can be very helpful for that. Yes, 100 % like they lead to what what's most valuable for you and help help help you understand them just like.
30:12.20
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, and I think they help you find your core values right? yeah.
30:25.15
Ryan Hawk
Some of the people that like we we mentioned when we were writing our core values. The people that have impacted us like our parents and coaches and and and those like that that those moments goal go hand in hand with those people that have impacted us the most. Yeah.
30:37.40
Dustin Burleson
Yeah, and one of yours is curious and you grew up in Dayton ohio the home of the Wright Brothers kind of curious fellows. What was that like in your household I got to say I want to highlight I don't know that you and. Coach cups. No but I grew up in Portsmouth Ohio and anytime we had a chance to go see Centerville play and football or soccer or tennis. Our coaches would say you got to go watch. Go watch these guys. This is a powerhouse we grew up in a very small, very small town. But.
30:52.10
Ryan Hawk
Nice.
31:03.90
Ryan Hawk
Nice.
31:05.70
Dustin Burleson
What was that like in your house growing up obviously with probably a lot of competition and curiosity.
31:10.99
Ryan Hawk
Um, I would say um by the way you got to go watch the interval basketball team play now. Um, those guys are so good. Um, so and fun to watch so our our our household was ah the competitive element is is 100% true
31:14.19
Dustin Burleson
Um, yes, yeah yeah.
31:26.64
Ryan Hawk
Um, I think we were most just most into playing whatever sport was in that season so we didn't really do much else outside of that. So I think sports. The reason why I talk about them a lot is just because they've impacted my life so much and I I get criticized every once while all just stupid much sports there too many sports stories or sports analogies and I just like I don't know what you want me to do like it like like act like that wasn't my life I mean that's my life. So like those things impact me. So I I try to like be less apologetic of if I guess if you're not into that you don't have to read but I would I can't imagine ever telling somebody like don't talk about your life or don't talk about the things that impacted you the most so our house was just really sports oriented played all the sports. You know my older brother is 4 years older than me a younger brother 2 years younger than me and just hyper competitiveitive and literally everything that we do. We had a tennis courts that were a few hundred yards away from our house in a park um a basketball hoop that we would play basketball in all the time obviously throwing football playing baseball doing everything so it's just. Really hyper competitive and we just played a lot of games because we didn't specialize in what sport that we were going to play. We played everything and I think that just probably helped raise us to always compete.
32:42.66
Ryan Hawk
To always be willing to kind of give everything we had when it came to practice and preparation and then in games and then also to try to be a good teammate. My dad says that still says that all the time I'd be a good teammate. Be a good teammate. Be a good teammate. What does that mean you know, be there for them. Always know your assignment. Always do what you're supposed to do always have their back. Do whatever you can. To help the team win the game and and so ah for me I Just think sports really have impacted us more than anything when it comes to how our house was growing up.
33:12.29
Dustin Burleson
It's awesome. But I I could talk to you all day about the book I want to wrap with 1 big question and and a takeaway concept. You got the chance to speak with Jim Collins the brilliant
33:21.70
Ryan Hawk
Um, yeah.
33:23.57
Dustin Burleson
Business strategist and I too tried for years to get him on the podcast. So my hat's off to you for getting him on to your great podcast. He talks about you know who right? and and I think you know you you call it your squad or your 3 a m friends and I think coach cups calls them foxhole friends. You know.
33:30.66
Ryan Hawk
Um, yeah, yeah.
33:40.67
Dustin Burleson
Do you think success and leadership and excellence are are more about who less about what and how and how have you approached that.
33:48.62
Ryan Hawk
Ah, probably I mean it's it's a combination of things but to me the things that I I feel like has have impacted me the most are the people. So again, starting from my my family my parents and then you know that. Eighth grade year going to my freshman year when I when I met coach Greg and coach olery and the like the the the fact that those guys had higher standards for me than I did that those guys believed that I could do um that I could perform at a level that I didn't think I was capable of they mean they're the reason I got a college scholarship 100% them and my teammates. So. I think when when I think about anything that has gone well, it's it's almost always about the people um teams collaboration think about work like nobody is a self-made billionaire I hate that phrase I don't I don't hate a lot of things but I don't like that phrase at all because it's not true. Ah, just because you didn't inherit it hair. It doesn't mean you're self-made everybody is community made we all are um, yes, some people work better with others but but but everybody depends on other people and so I think it's worth it to pour into and develop. Lifelong transformational relationships. That's what's going to be the difference and then you look at like the long term studies that the longitudinal harvard study on happiness. What's the number 1 thing on the list of the most happiest people who have lived over the past eighty five ninety years number 1 relationships love full stop.
35:20.26
Ryan Hawk
That's what it That's what it is and so it's building those loving relationships Brook just told a story recently about the fact like you know What's the best thing in the world like what what is he's like is when your kids want to hang out with you when they don't have to anymore his kids a little bit older than mine and so he's like we're at we're out. We're on campus. Ah, in between watching his son play basketball and at the hotel room and gabes like come on over and they just played uno for hours him his his wife his son his daughter just the 4 of them their whole family playing uno for hours in a hotel lobby is like that's it does not get better than that. It just doesn't and so the combination of like. Developing as well as pouring into the people you love and then also developing these cool foxwell friend relationships beyond your immediate family that brings me the most joy it probably brings most people the most joy of like if you find those people and you really invest in those relationships. I mean that's that's just that that's the juice man I mean I really think that's what it's all about and so whether it's building a business or building a team Whatever ah you get the people right? I like your odds of getting whatever the goal is that you're going for.
36:30.59
Dustin Burleson
It's awesome. Everyone's got to go get the book the score that matters Ryan Hawke thank you so much for being here such an honor.
36:37.90
Ryan Hawk
Dude. Thank you I appreciate the fact I need to note this man Dustin your prep and ease and comfort. It makes me want to do this again. I'm very much appreciate the fact that it's obvious you did the work. And I don't take that for granted so huge props to you man because that makes it so much more enjoyable when you're on this end of things when it's obvious that the guy on that end of the thing did the work. So thank you very much for that.
37:03.22
Dustin Burleson
Hey it's not it always helps when they're great books.
37:08.37
Ryan Hawk
Yeah, well I appreciate that. Thank you? Ah, yeah, man.
37:11.90
Dustin Burleson
Ah, thanks again for being here.