Jan-Benedict Steenkamp is the C. Knox Massey Distinguished Professor of Marketing at the University of North Carolina’s Kenan-Flagler Business School and author of the book, Time to Lead: Lessons for Today's Leaders from Bold Decisions that Changed History. He is an honorary professor at the European Institute for Advanced Studies in Management, fellow of the European Marketing Academy, chairman of the International Board of Experts at the Institute for National Branding, and fellow at the Institute for Sustainable Growth at Fudan University in Shanghai. He is the author of four previous business books and over one hundred articles for leading marketing and management journals such as Harvard Business Review, Management and Business Review, Business Strategy Review and Financial Times. His latest book is about great men and women, their actions in leadership that have withstood the test of time, what we can learn from them and the lessons that are relevant for us here and now.
In this episode, Dustin talks with Jan-Benedict Steenkamp about his book, Time to Lead, and how historical leadership examples might help us improve our skills better than the latest management fads.
You'll discover how to use your emotions to think, not think with your emotions, so that you can make your followers part of something larger than themselves. Professor Steenkamp shares 16 well-researched and carefully-curated historical case studies of world leaders that can help you deepen your wisdom, clarify your thinking and improve your outcomes as a leader.
Jan-Benedict says, "Everybody can improve their leadership qualities by reading about other leaders, how they resolved their dilemmas, and why they were successful." You'll learn the four types of leadership metaphors: the hedgehog, the fox, the eagle and the ostrich. Adapted from Isaiah Berlin’s review of the Greek poet Archilochus' statement that “the fox knows many smaller things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.” He writes, “According to Berlin, the distinction between hedgehogs and foxes marks one of the deepest differences, which divide human beings."
On the program, we discuss how Franklin Delano Roosevelt persuaded a war-weary nation to enter the Second World War, how the best leaders know very well where they want to go but are not dogmatic in the means they use to get there and why you should not attempt to become a kind of person you are not.
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Dustin Burleson:
Where is leadership when we need it? And what can today's leaders learn from bold decisions that changed the course of history? The way we find solutions to problems has a lot to do with our character traits, but what do these traits say about our leadership style? And what style works best when we come face to face with our next big dilemma? Hey, it's Dustin, and you're listening to The Burleson Box. We'll be back in a moment to talk with Jan-Benedict Steenkamp, about his book, Time to Lead: Lessons for Today's Leaders from Bold Decisions that Changed History. Professor Steenkamp, the Knox Massey Distinguished Professor of Marketing at the University of North Carolina's Business School. A prolific writer, he's the author of four previous business books. He's written over 100 articles for leading marketing and management journals, as well as leading practitioner outlets, such as Harvard Business Review, Management and Business Review, Business Strategy in the Financial Times. He has published over a dozen case studies on the role of inspired leadership and company success. His work has been featured in Bloomberg Business Week, The Economist, Financial Times, New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal.
Dustin Burleson:
In today's program, you'll discover how historical analogies can help you improve your leadership skills better than the latest management fads and how to avoid the common pitfalls and traps of implementing new leadership styles and strategies. Let's take a closer look on this episode of The Burleson Box.
Dustin Burleson:
Dr. Steenkamp, thank you for joining me, it's an honor to have you on today. We're talking about your latest book, Time to Lead: Lessons for Today's Leaders from Bold Decisions that Changed History, thank you for being here.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Dr. Burleson, it is an honor to be on your show.
Dustin Burleson:
You and I were talking a little bit offline and you were being humble. We mentioned Peter Drucker, and I put you right there in the same ranks as the great thinker, the late Peter Drucker. We talked about books that are written from a historical perspective, and this book clearly is one of those, it's fantastic. I'm curious why you think readers can improve their leadership skills more from historical analogies than by studying the latest management fads?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Great question. Well, I think we can learn a lot, we do learn a lot as human beings from historical case studies. Let's face it, we have learned the most probably from our parents, perhaps our grandparents and essentially from their wisdom and their lessons. That is actually kind of an historical case study that we are talking about. What I do in the book here... Is not talking, although my father has been influencing my thinking and I'm open about that and I'm not at all, let's say, feel bad about it, but we have a lot of great historical people that have lessons for us here and now. So why would we be... Why could we learn from them? I think I can have a lot of theory, let's be very straightforward.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Most Americans would agree that two of the greatest leaders of the 20th century are Dr. Martin Luther King and President Mandela of South Africa, the first black president in a democratic South Africa. Now, if we look at them, Martin Luther King has been very clear in all his writings that he learned a lot from Mahatma Gandhi, the freedom fighter against the British in India. So King said, I have learned a lot by studying the life and ideas and leadership of Gandhi. Mandela, a generation after King has been very clear that he had studied and understood and learned from the leadership what King did. So let's see it, if we have three of these great leaders, including the... Among the greatest leaders in history like Mandela and like King, they say, actually much of what I did, I learned from these historical case studies. Are we any better? Are we any smarter than King or Mandela? I don't think so.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Now the other side is the management fads, which drive me crazy because that's what management, unfortunately and especially give such a bad odor in The Economist and those kind of magazines because running after the latest fads just means you... These fads haven't really thought through very well, these are lessons that haven't stood the test of time and they will be over in a short while. One example, one of the greatest books in terms of management fads of all times is In Search of Excellence by Peters and Waterman. All the lessons about it, everybody was running it around it, 10 years later, half of those companies were bankrupt, the ones are doing not very well. So the point is, fad versus things that have really been proven and to have leadership at a serious basis we need to think about things that have been proven and that you can adapt, but that withstood the test of time in their wisdom and insight and that's what the book is about.
Dustin Burleson:
I love it. And I reiterate that with our listeners, that often it's just that we're poor students of history. A lot of these things have been tried before in management and leadership, certainly in marketing and principles. I joke and say, Amazon is kind of an online version of the old Sears catalog, you used to be able to actually order... They had prefabricated houses, you could buy everything from Sears and we pretend like Amazon's this new thing, well it's just a new delivery method. I want to highlight something, because you said, and it struck me in the book how these lessons from the past, particularly from parents or grandparents, I was thrilled to read in the book your history, I believe your parents actually were in Nazi occupied Amsterdam I believe during the Second World War and your father was the president of the Dutch Senate, can you talk a little bit about that history? That's fascinating to me.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yeah. So my parents as teenagers lived in Amsterdam in the Netherlands when, in the Second World War and my mother in 1945, she was literally skin over bone. She was eating tulip bulbs and she had to go out with her younger sister to go to farmers outside of Amsterdam, to barter silver linens, et cetera, for a little bit of food. So from that, actually she has always understood... Essentially one of the things is how grateful they both are for the liberation by America and Britain from the Nazis. Then my father was the president of the Senate and the founder of the party that has ruled the Netherlands for most of the last 50 years, the Christian Democratic Party and as president of the Senate, he would never go to The Hague without having a passport and diamonds with him, just in case the Russians would detect.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
So we are talking about different times here that now fortunately it is over. But one of the things that I learned from that is that strong, courageous leadership is important. And my father in his leadership and in Dutch politics, he took his cues very much from FDR and from Churchill. So how to do things, when to stand up, when to give in, how to adapt, those kind of things and I was shaped by much of my parents' thinking. And as a child, I'm grateful to have been able to learn from them.
Dustin Burleson:
Yeah. I read in the intro to the seventh chapter on Franklin Delano Roosevelt, that your father said, "Never forget what FDR has done for the liberation of the Netherlands." And I think a lot of Americans even have forgotten about the Second World War and FDR and really what an unbelievable time that was. In the book in that chapter, I really appreciated how you demonstrated some of FDR's leadership. Can you talk a little bit about how... I think he knew we were going... He knew the United States was going to enter that war, but how he got the American public behind it, I think that's really fascinating and really applicable. As leaders we're not doing something as serious as leading a nation into war, but perhaps leading into a new market, expanding a product line or offering a new service. We talk a lot about employees to buy into that, and I know you work with a lot of smart companies. Can you talk a little bit about FDR and your experience and in writing that chapter?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yes. What we should not forget is that in 1940 America overwhelmingly was against any involvement in the war in Europe. Overwhelmingly, we're talking about 80% of the people. FDR already knew in 1940, there was no way that America could stay out, especially after France fell. But he also understood if he would tell the Americans, we are going to be involved in the war in Europe, he would essentially lose them. There would be too big of a gap between what he knew what was right, and what the Americans were willing to hear. And what FDR did is in a carefully orchestrated step by step process, pushing the American opinion a little bit in the direction of involvement into war. So small steps, each of these steps was not big enough for opponents. I mean they opposed it, but it wasn't enough to get a massive opposition and gradually he wasn't... I explained it in the book, how that actually can be explained by the marketing theory of persuasion.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
He was able to move the Americans into the right direction. And sometimes what you see also in business or in professional organizations that leadership may see that say the dramatic change is required, but you also understand that a lot of their followers, the employees, are not ready for that and that if there is time, if you wait too long, then you have to move quickly and then it may be tough, but if you understand that beforehand, you can, with a few small steps, smaller steps, essentially make the minds ready to move in that right direction. So to understand to do that, and what I've done is to say to contemporary relevant, I had a meeting with was a group at Fort Bragg so that there's the army, psychological operations of the U.S. Army who are a lot involved in essentially influencing foreign governments in the right direction.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
And they have a number of issues, which again, we'll talk about here. But the point is, I explained to them how actually using FDR, the commander in chief at the end of the day, how he used... Did that in a number of small steps and that worked with them how you could actually apply that in changing the opinion of a certain government in a direction that will be more conducive to America and to world peace. So these kinds of things that you can directly, I mean, I can apply them working with the military, I applied them directly in real life.
Dustin Burleson:
We see that in our own practice, we often take too big of a leap. Safe to say, I guess, and in your opinion, it takes a little longer, right? To get that buy in, it's not as quick?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yes. But then Dr. Burleson, it is important for the good leader, and that is Louis the 14th already said, "regarder vers l'avenir," which essentially is to lead is to look ahead into the future. So if you understand that there is a big gap between where you think the organization should be and where it is now, then you can either delay, or you can say, I'm going to start changing the process right now, because then you have the time to do several of these smaller steps because at the end of the... If you delay, if you procrastinate till the end, then it's either bankruptcy or you have to change overnight. So it is always good to essentially plan ahead of time and FDR again is one of those examples of people that understood that very well.
Dustin Burleson:
In the book you talk about, the leadership metaphors of the hedgehog or the fox and what you call the eagle and the ostrich. I like to dig into that a little bit, safe to say FDR was an eagle?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Absolutely.
Dustin Burleson:
Talk a little bit about how some leaders like a hedgehog, they have that one thing focus... They have that central focus, they can see the forest, but often to your point, we're not able to take the little steps we're not able to test and maneuver like a fox, walk us through that I really love those metaphors.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yeah. So it is based on essentially two essential tasks that any leader has to do. That is an effective leader, has to know essentially where they are going, so what the goal is, what the vision is, and the second they have to have a good understanding of how to get there. So it is the one hand is the goals, the vision, and on the other hand is the means. And what I show in the book is that the most successful leaders know very well where they want to go, but they are not dogmatic in the kind of means that they use to get there. And that is why you have to take both into account. Foxes are really good in terms of means best example would be German chancellor, Angela Merkel, or president Bill Clinton, not so much a grand overarching vision, but very good political operators.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
You have the hedgehogs that really know, okay, this is what I want to achieve but perhaps when it comes to tactical flexibility, they are less... Let's say Regan was, actually a bit stronger when it came to vision. Although he had great qualities, but he was not a man of details, but a lot of people are ostriches, they have neither of the two and these ostriches, they don't really know where they're going and they don't have a good insight into the kind of means how to get there. And you will find them a lot also with younger emerging leaders, because they haven't really thought about it. And the point for them is that they just take a little bit of time to themselves and essentially reflect upon, okay, what do I want to achieve in life? And let's talk about the professional life because you have other things, but you know, that's not what the book is about, a good marriage or those kind of things, which are also important.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
What are my goals? Where do I want to be when I'm 65 or 70? And then, how should I get there? And how should I get there, you have to do a little bit of an assessment for yourself. What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? So to get there, you have to understand, are you for example, a good orator? A good speaker? Are you a great analytical thinker? Are you operationally strong? That depends on different people. And so strategically think, and that's actually that I did already when I was a teenager, I strategically think, okay, this is what I want to achieve and here are the things where I relatively excel, how can I use them more effectively? So if you think about that beforehand, you're going to be more effective than if it all happens and you may be lucky of course, but a lot of people are not lucky.
Dustin Burleson:
We see that a lot with small business owners who particularly came out of medical school or dental school where they're truly professional students and you don't have, nor would you want to take the same skillset in business or marketing which you're an expert in and use some of those in delivering surgery, for example. So it's hard for, I think a lot of our members to put on the business hat and to see some of those deficiencies, if you're going through the book, I can tell you, Dr. Steenkamp has a wonderful appendix with a grit scale that you should all take. There's a hedgehog scale and there's others we'll talk about. Because you can start to identify some of these and I'm curious your perspective on this, because again, you work with the United States Military, you work with governments, you work with successful businesses, how do you see people getting tripped up? And when they identify those weaknesses, maybe they see something as a leader that has allowed them to stumble or procrastinate, or maybe even get discouraged. How do you help them overcome them?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
And what I have noticed is, let's say the biggest thing where they are stumbling, getting tripped up is because they have been reading some kind of management faddish book, which pushes them to become a leader that they are not. So that is one of the big things. It is not that we... A lot of competent people that I run into, but the issue is that many of those people, they believe that they have to be a particular kind of person to be successful as a leader. Now, if that is a particular kind of person that actually happens to be very close to what you are, that's fine. But often that is not the case. So it is what General Holt writes in the foreword, and I totally agree with him, it is you should not attempt to become a kind of person that you are not.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
So for example, there's a lot of faddish talk about servant leadership. I mean, faddish is not because servant leadership is bad, it's not at all bad, but it is faddish because it this presented as the only road to salvation, which is absolutely not true. Now, the point is let's look at some people like for example, prime minister Margaret Thatcher, a monumental, effective prime minister in Great Britain. She could not be a servant leader, even if she wanted to, which she didn't, because it requires a certain humility in character, which she didn't have. I mean, FDR could not be a servant leader because he, I mean, he knew that he was actually really smart and that he had insight that many others did not have, so why would you want to become a leader that you are not? So that is the biggest thing that I see in terms of implementation of lessons that people... People should accept who they are and improve upon who they are, not radically change themselves because as any psychologist and psychiatrist can tell you, changing yourself is possible. Radically changing yourself is close to impossible.
Dustin Burleson:
Exactly. We agree and often joke that the self-help section in the... I think it's Seinfeld's joke is, it shouldn't really be titled self-help if in the bookstore, if this is something you can go and just totally change how you think, I'd see a lot of leadership books that they have this recipe and you leave thinking you either have to become that person or that somehow you weren't born that way so you'll never be a great leader, but you disagree. I want to touch on grit because studying the 16 men and women in your book who are great leaders, you point out not all of them are exceptionally brilliant. Although many of them are not, all of them are exceptionally charismatic, but almost all of them have grit. So, walk us through that realization that not every leader is the same.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yeah, so what I find in my work is that a lot of these character traits that have been suggested as being important, not necessarily, I mean, some of the leaders in the book had high humility, like St. Peter, others did not have high humility at all, FDR didn't have high humility or some other ones as well. You know, Dr. King was extremely highly educated, but a fellow American George Washington had fairly limited education, something that you always felt a little bit at a disadvantage when it came to people like Hamilton or Jefferson, some were extremely intelligent like Alexander the Great, others were not so much, there were even people that were not of particularly high integrity, which by the way, I can also see with contemporary business people that you are not much highly successful, but integrity men would be so much...
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
So some of them were very sociable, other ones, not very sociable. So the thing is here is the good thing is that all kinds of people, whether it is male, female, intelligent, less intelligent, I mean, you have certain minimum of course, education and and so on, they are not, let's say barriers to success but what I have found in my work is that grit that's the courage and the determination to continue doing something that is difficult or unpleasant, essentially, it is what Billy, I think Billy Ocean sings, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I mean, that is something that I have found is all these leaders have that in common, that one single character trait they have in common and that is grit.
Dustin Burleson:
Exactly. I see that over and over as you read through these 16 characters in the book, and I love some of the ones you picked, like Cortez really startled me. I think one of your friends said, he wasn't a really nice man, but if you can't deny what he did as a leader. So that again, I think if you go to the appendix and take the grit scale and probably have your leaders and managers in the business do the same thing, you'll learn a lot about yourself and to highlight Dr. Steenkamp's point, don't feel like you have to go and try to change yourself, just like FDR was not going to shelf his hubris, that's just not who he was. He was exceptionally smart and it came across and he wasn't shy in letting people know that.
Dustin Burleson:
So I want to shift gears a little bit, because I know there's a lot of leadership books and seminars that as we mentioned before, leave the audience wondering if great leaders are born and not made. You say in the book, "All these great leaders are humans and struggle with the same kinds of things we all do, the stories of their lives and the decisions they were faced with are encouraging if only to show that you don't have to be super human to face your own critical moments." Can you talk about some of the transformation you've seen that we've highlighted that, there are different leadership styles, you talk about seven different traits in the book. Maybe talk about how we learn, how we don't have to be superhuman and maybe you mentioned earlier taking some small steps, maybe what you recommend new clients do when they pick up the book and say, "Okay, what's next?"
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yeah so, my recommendation is that you turn to the appendix and feel out these instruments in the safety of your own room, brutally honest to yourself, because if you are not honest, as in everything in life, it's not going to work. If you are going to be brutally honest and then what you can do is that I describe that in the book in the appendix, based your particular scores, there may be an issue or not, because that depends and I help you with that. But if you are not completely satisfied with what you do, then what you can do is you can do a next step and say, "Okay, I want to improve this a little bit." Then I direct you to particular chapters of leaders that had really struggled with this and overcome this particular issue.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
And then what you can do is a next step is after learning that, and we all learn a lot by examples, by case studies and et cetera, is then you can go into some improvement. So for example, let's be specific if we look at grit and four components of grit, there are in the book as I described focus, self-confidence, motivation to succeed, and resilience. You can get a score on each of those four and I did it, then I actually scored on three of them really high, but on the fourth one, actually not high and to be honest, I wasn't happy with that but it was honest, my honest score, and since then I have actually consciously started to work on it.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
So what you can then do is say, for example, if it shows up that you are not very focused, then I think it is very important that you take actually the moment to think about what is the focus in your current job? What is the focus actually in your life? Do I really have a focus? And the amazing thing is I noticed that often even, when I interview people that we hire at UNC, many people say, okay, what is it really what you want to achieve a life? People say, "I've never thought about it." Well, that's the first thing. That would be a focus in your life. When I lived in the Netherlands, my dentist was a friend of mine and he was actually really bored, because he said, "I'm here and there's for me, no career possible anymore." And... So he was actually, he was bored, he didn't know what to do because essentially, he didn't have really goal in his life. And it undermined... I mean, he clearly wasn't happy with that. So we talked about this, how he could improve that, but of course, the person has to do it.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Now when, another thing, just in terms of time, I won't go through all of it. But in terms of resilience, that's very important. Overcoming adversity, and disappointments, and interestingly, being engaged in sports helps you because, it can be competitive sports, it can be chess, it can be tennis, it can be basketball, whatever it can help you essentially say, okay we lose, our team loses again and again, you have to pick yourself up, it shapes a bit of your character and you also need to develop your mindset, essentially very... consciously think okay, if I'm low on resiliency, what can I do to do that? You can search for some challenges.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
There is, by the way, Dr. Burleson, there are a lot of people, if they are not so good on particular aspects, they avoid them. They avoid challenging tasks, they avoid things that... where they might fail so that they don't fail, but that doesn't build grit. So the thing is, grit builds by doing things that are challenging and sometimes you will fail, that builds grit, and you will succeed, that build self-confidence. So there is a lot what people actually can do, but these things take a little bit of time and that's why it's better to start today than tomorrow.
Dustin Burleson:
I agree, I find it fascinating. Resilience was my lowest score on the grit index as well. If you're honest with yourself, how you handle criticism and how you handle resistance to your goals. And it's again to Dr. Steenkamp's point, please, when you take these assessments, be brutally honest, don't answer how you think or wish you are but be honest, I scored a 12 on that section so I'm looking at ways to improve. And you're right, we will avoid those areas. You know, so I'm notorious at our team leader meetings. If I know that if I speak first and than if I'm driving the agenda, people tend to not resist my ideas because I'm the boss, so I've had to force myself to not be allowed to speak in those meetings until everyone else is done and so I go last and that's... Initially it was very hard for me and-
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
I think you are very honest, and we could be brothers in this resepect because that was also something that I rated low. I did look at in some time ago and I said, actually, because I have been relatively successful, so resilience also is built up by disappointments and based on that score, I've changed some of my behaviors to do turn this around because it's never too... You are never too old to make some changes.
Dustin Burleson:
It's exactly right. And that's why this book, I think I either joked in an email to you or your assistant, that you could add a couple zeros to the price tag of the book, because it's... If you take it and actually use it as it's intended to be used and understand it, I mean, this is something that'll sit on the shelf and you can go back to over and over and over again as a reference as you grow as a leader so I just want to thank you again for writing it. It's helped us, it's helped my company and I know it was going to help the listeners who now have a copy of it and our study guide. So again, I want to thank you so much for being here before we go, I want to give the listeners a chance to learn more about you. What's next? I know you've already got another book in the works and how they can find out more about you?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yeah. So, thank you for first of all for your very kind words, I would love listeners to connect with me, perhaps my dentist is also listening, that would be great because actually I heard that he did some of the tests and he wasn't exactly happy with the results, so he wanted to talk with me about that. My next visit is going to be two crowns in my mouth so for the price of two crowns, I'm happy to advise him...
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
So what people can do is, if they want to connect with me on LinkedIn, then Jan-Benedict Steenkamp, just in the sort function that will show up, and I would be happy to connect with you and you can also get more information, including a podcast and a lot of other things on my website, which is www.jbsteenkamp.com, and so these are the two main ways through which I communicate with other people, and I love to hear the listener's opinions and feedback. And if you like the book, then it would be wonderful if you would leave a comment on Amazon or on Goodreads or something like that because ultimately, the value of any of these books is what listeners get out of it. That is actually what drives me and what makes me passionate.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
And my next step is that I've written a couple of short case studies and other people have written in the military and other people have written short case studies to create a workbook that people can use, but that would be let's say, executive settings, that would be the kind of situations. So that's what I'm currently working on. And I'm also working on another book, but that is going to be a several year process because, writing such a book is not something that you can do in a year, unfortunately.
Dustin Burleson:
Yeah, I was going to ask earlier in the program, this current book had to take years, I would assume, correct?
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Yes, it took years. Those were the most rewarding years in my life. My wife has said, "I've never seen you as motivated, as energized as when you wrote this book." So it was absolutely... I loved it, but yes, it does take quite a bit of time.
Dustin Burleson:
Well, it shows it's absolutely brilliant. We're so glad you wrote it and I'm so honored that you were here, I had a lot of fun. Thanks for being on the program.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Thank you very much, and you have a wonderful weekend.
Dustin Burleson:
Thank you.
Jan-Benedict Steenkamp:
Bye.
Dustin Burleson:
You've been listening to another episode of The Burleson Box, where we bring you and your team leaders into the conversation with today's best authors and business leaders. If you enjoyed today's program, be sure to share us with a friend or colleague, you can visit theburlesonbox.com and sign up to receive my monthly reading list. Study guides for each of the books, and authors be interview, or you can call us at +1 800-891-7520 and discuss how a Burleson Box membership, monthly coaching, or annual leadership conference can work for you and your team. Be sure to listen each month for new resources, we can help you and your employees serve your patients with excellence. Until next time, remember the words of Charlie Munger, who said "In my whole life, I have known no wise people over a broad subject matter who didn't read all the time, none, zero." Go make it a great month and I'll see you right here next time on The Burleson Box.